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    #1

    Deumer & Juncker Pilot badges

    I have not fully realised until today the relationshipe between Deumer and Juncker when it came to pilot badges...

    Having just received a Deumer pilot badge (boy have I waited a long time to find one of these!) and was comparing to a J2. It seems to me to be the exact same eagle except for the maker marks.

    So, I wondering a few things here... I had thought that the marker mark was applied when the metal was still hot (ie soft). IF this is the case then 1 of 2 things happened

    1) The eagles were all made at one site and marked accordingly. Or
    2) There were 2 dies

    However , there could be a 3rd option that the mark was applied when cold but I don't know enough about metal fabrication to consider this option. Maybe the eagle was re-heated enough to apply the mark later?

    Anyone care to take a stab at it and explain why they have chosen that option?
    Last edited by Rich G; 12-10-2006, 03:22 PM.
    Interested in hand-stitched EM/NCO LW insignia and cuff-titles
    Decorations of Germany
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    #2
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    Last edited by Rich G; 12-10-2006, 03:22 PM.
    Interested in hand-stitched EM/NCO LW insignia and cuff-titles
    Decorations of Germany

    Comment

      #3
      Hi Rich,

      Good catch, here are both Deumer types together, I also have a J2 IMME(not JMME) coming. So that would make 3 maker marks on the same patt eagle!

      I reckon made independantly, why does the Deumer have a very characteristic cutout, a cutout is only found on very few J2 junckers???

      Regards,

      Neil
      Attached Files

      Comment

        #4
        Hi Ricardo, nice score!

        Deumer used Juncker parts for a while, but at some time also had their own design (see pic below).

        You've raised some excellent questions and I don't know enough about metal to give you more than a few theories.

        IF the marks were pressed into hot metal, which certainly appears to be the case on some Juncker badges (I'll post another pic shortly)...then either there were two dies, each company owning one (JMME maybe owning a third)...OR,

        ...what about this....??? Deumer actually owned the die first and made a few like yours before selling the die to Juncker (who was maybe looking for a new design to replace their early thin type). Then Duemer created a new but similar design for themselves.

        I've got one like yours and the detail is top notch, possibly better than the J2's. To take it a step further, the JMME's that I've seen using Juncker parts seem to lack even more detail. Is it possible that when the die started to wear, Juncker sold it to JMME and then started to use the third pattern themselves?

        Here is a Deumer FLGZGFHRABZ made with thier own design....
        Attached Files

        Comment

          #5
          Neil, you dirty SOB!! Always quicker on the computer than me!!! You're the reason I quit getting up at 0445 Friday mornings!!!

          ;-)

          Here's a shot of a Juncker hallmark that made me think it was applied to hot metal.....notice the roughness around the edges at the bottom...
          Attached Files

          Comment

            #6
            These two are made with Deumer's "other" die....(not "Juncker" parts)...
            Attached Files

            Comment

              #7
              Originally posted by Neil Howes
              Hi Rich,

              Good catch, here are both Deumer types together, I also have a J2 IMME(not JMME) coming. So that would make 3 maker marks on the same patt eagle!

              I reckon made independantly, why does the Deumer have a very characteristic cutout, a cutout is only found on very few J2 junckers???

              Regards,

              Neil
              Neil

              Thanks! I would say the cut out is down to hand finishing and not produced from the die.

              Rich
              Interested in hand-stitched EM/NCO LW insignia and cuff-titles
              Decorations of Germany

              Comment

                #8
                Originally posted by Tim Calvert
                Hi Ricardo, nice score!

                Deumer used Juncker parts for a while, but at some time also had their own design (see pic below).

                You've raised some excellent questions and I don't know enough about metal to give you more than a few theories.

                IF the marks were pressed into hot metal, which certainly appears to be the case on some Juncker badges (I'll post another pic shortly)...then either there were two dies, each company owning one (JMME maybe owning a third)...OR,

                ...what about this....??? Deumer actually owned the die first and made a few like yours before selling the die to Juncker (who was maybe looking for a new design to replace their early thin type). Then Duemer created a new but similar design for themselves.

                I've got one like yours and the detail is top notch, possibly better than the J2's. To take it a step further, the JMME's that I've seen using Juncker parts seem to lack even more detail. Is it possible that when the die started to wear, Juncker sold it to JMME and then started to use the third pattern themselves?

                Here is a Deumer FLGZGFHRABZ made with thier own design....
                TC

                Bloody good theory! I wonder if there are enough J2, J3 and IMME's (or JMME's) collectively here to be able to prove that theory?

                At the start I couldn't see the difference between the 'Deumer' eagle and the 'Deumer/Juncker' and then I noticed how different the right wing (as you look at it) is. Incredibly similar eagles though!!

                I'll never understand why Juncker stopped using the 'J1'. It was by far the nicest design.

                Rich
                Interested in hand-stitched EM/NCO LW insignia and cuff-titles
                Decorations of Germany

                Comment

                  #9
                  Agree about the finishing, however when would it have been done??
                  When the IMME arrives I will post it with a Juncker & Deumer for comparison. Regarding quality of the IMME over the JMME there is definitely a big difference.

                  The main difference in the Deumer eagles are the feet, also the wreaths are different. Here is the link to my close ups post 17 & 18.
                  http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=deumer

                  Regards,

                  Neil

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Neil


                    Looking forward to your comparisons.

                    Rich
                    Interested in hand-stitched EM/NCO LW insignia and cuff-titles
                    Decorations of Germany

                    Comment

                      #11
                      RG Quote:
                      "I'll never understand why Juncker stopped using the 'J1'. It was by far the nicest design"

                      The J1 is a classy and fine design, but maybe with the coming of war, a more fierce look was in order???

                      Also, I woudn't be surprised to find out that both models were for sale concurrently. Maybe mid '39 thru the end of '40 you could have your choice of which ever style suited your taste. Just theories.
                      Attached Files

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Here's an old shot I found....

                        3 Deumers with a Juncker in front.
                        The badge farthest back is the Deumer made with the J2 parts. They did a very nice job on the wreath. It's actually vaulted!
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Nice find Rich,

                          That fits nicely to your Deumer AG/RO huh?
                          I would disagree that the hole between the legs of the Deumer is from hand finishing. It is much to narrow to be done with a file. I would think that this was done in the original stamping and that Deumer and Juncker did in fact each have their own dies. Albeit probably both made by the same master die cutter.

                          As always, some lovely shots from TC. and looking forward to seeing your IMME Niel.

                          Skip
                          LOOKING FOR ALL ITEMS CONNECTED TO HERBERT SCHOB.

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Awsome eagles gents, I just love pilots badges. I only have one but now hopefully have another on the way.

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Thanks Schkip! (damn my schpelling!),

                              The badges that I've examined with the cut out "between the legs", ...it seemed like a hole was drilled first, then the file went into action from there. Similar to the Hurricane in a weather depiction chart........nevermind.
                              (Nimmermihr).

                              Comment

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