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    #76
    What were the penalties for these manufacturers if they chose to ignore this order? I would think that without some sort of enforcement, there would be no incentive for these firms to use the Juncker die?

    And in terms of quality, most of the variant reverse set-ups are flimsy and completely lacking quality. Seems antithesis to the regulation.

    Comment

      #77
      Dear Dylan,

      I think the most obvious penalty is to not get a concession to produce the badge they applied for and failed.
      Cheers, Frank

      Comment

        #78
        That's interesting Frank.

        So it looks like Juncker was still in full production at the beginning of 1945.

        So much for the age-old theory about APB makers being switched in the autumn of 1944 solely due to Juncker 'being bombed out'.

        Thanks.

        Comment

          #79
          Hmmm. I am not so sure that german papers would have announced when one of the most prestigious firms of the Reich situated in the middle of the capital was bombed out.

          I was going to write this yesterday but refrained as it is only hearsay.
          A couple of people here have told me stories about people running around in the the Alte Jakobstr. and surroundings and picking up some of the highest awards that the Reich had to offer after Juncker was bombed in DECEMBER 1944.
          I have also visited this street several times to see if I can find any trace of the old buildings. Since 1985 all I have seen are modern high rise offices and appartments in the whole area. There is not one pre war house standing anywere. A sure sign that everything in this area (slap bang in the middle of Berlin) was totally destroyed.
          Some of you may know the famous film taken from an aircraft flying over Berlin shortly after the war. The footage clearly shows that the centre of Berlin was flattened to the floor.

          Skip
          Last edited by skip; 10-29-2004, 07:09 AM.
          LOOKING FOR ALL ITEMS CONNECTED TO HERBERT SCHOB.

          Comment

            #80
            I was trying to remember where I'd seen a photograph of the Juncker factory after the bombing and after going through some archive disks I came up with this...

            Credited to Tim Calvert, the factory can be seen in ruins in the background.
            Now, we will have to see if Tim obtained this pic' from a magazine article and if so is there any relivant information as to the date of the bombing etc.
            Attached Files
            Warmest Regards ... John

            cimilitaria.com

            Comment

              #81
              I don't think that is an actual pic of the factory, Tim has the info on the pic!

              Neil

              Comment

                #82
                Hi Guys,

                A very interesting thread. The pin arrangement on the SC Zimmermann PAB is different to the Juncker, on the Juncker there is a RECESSED rectangle for the pin block to fit in, on the Z it is a raised rectangular rim, exactly the same as there early MARKED IAB, both have the roller pin etc, to me this still could be a a Z PAB Juncker design with there own reverse die etc

                There are so many of this badge with different pins, some with the die fault some without, maybe it is a Juncker design as it looks like the standard Juncker, but different companies used the same design and added there own back dies, and/or pin arrangements it would be interesting to know for sure!

                Regards,

                Anthony

                Comment

                  #83
                  well.....

                  ... an outstanding bit of detective work Frank!! Simply outstanding. With some respects, this lends credence to the theory that has been oft discussed regarding the A/P Badge... the die fronts remained the same between the (pre-bombing) solid badges and the (post-bombing) hollow badges.... If Juncker made the tools for the A/P Badges then the variant reverse would be logical post-bombing.
                  I don't have specific dates for that, just that it was generally accepted as having occurred at the end of 1944/early 1945. It's also possible that they would cease mention of this type of homeland action in "official publications" due to the (ergo) aknowledgement of the impending defeat of Germany... my memory from discussions with Bill Stump may be a bit vague here, I am trying to dig out copies of correspondence regarding A/P badges that Bill and I had years back, but not much hope there as I lost a tremendous amount of material in last year's system crash.
                  I think everything presented here regarding the dies is perfectly logical from a production standpoint as well as Quality Control standpoint. Unfortunately, due to the late in the war changes, I suspect that these variations will continue to be (relatively) hard to find. Note that the hollow wreath APB's are much harder to find than the solid backed ones, as an example.
                  As an aside, since the actual presses were probably pretty standard manufacturing machines, the creation of dies for multiple firms would not be all that hard. The tool would be the same irrespective of the maker assuming some sort of consistency in the purchase of (capitol) operating equipment.

                  Nice work Frank and an excellent discussion by all involved.

                  Comment

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