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**Alex W.** · 01-20-2013, 12:07 PM

some more

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**Hans Kondor** · 01-20-2013, 12:27 PM

The hinge is a bit wider although I think this one is a post war example just like this one:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=retired+S%26L

**Scott C.** · 01-21-2013, 03:39 PM

Patrick states (in the above e-stand link) "I believe these are legitimate and were produced in the closing months of the war but never reached distribution."

I thought the consensus deemed S&Ls shown here and in the link as not wartime manufacture (?).

**Thomas Durante** · 01-21-2013, 03:58 PM

Hi guys,

I think that is still generally the consensus, that these are postwar. But consensus is not really science, and the best we can do with these (and other S&L badges) is just continue to lay out the current evidence; both for and against these.

As far as I know, not a single one of these S&L RPs has been found ground dug, or directly from German vet hands, nor been identified in period photos. That all speaks against them. Also speaking against these is the fact that they can also be found with all different sorts of maker marks, such as L/11, Juncker, L/58, etc, and many are certainly postwar creations IMO. Furthermore, most have the "1957 scrape" tool mark on the pin, which also suggests postwar production (in my opinion).

The only thing speaking in favor of these, is that they have been found on the postwar Souvenier boards. It is commonly thought that these boards were put together from leftover wartime-produced badges, so this suggests that some may have been around at the end of the war. I would tend to agree with this notion; that finding these on the boards is a good sign of originality. But the problem here is that the boards are definitely postwar, and without knowing exactly when S&L started new production of swastika-bearing badges, who can be sure about these questionable badges? For me, it is hard to point at something that is definitely postwar as evidence that it was made during the war. This seems counter intuitive to me, even though it may be exactly right.

We are still missing parts of the puzzle, and the best we can do is keep our eyes open for the evidence and update the threads with the new info.

Tom

**Nordmark** · 01-21-2013, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

Hi guys,

I think that is still generally the consensus, that these are postwar. But consensus is not really science, and the best we can do with these (and other S&L badges) is just continue to lay out the current evidence; both for and against these.

As far as I know, not a single one of these S&L RPs has been found ground dug, or directly from German vet hands, nor been identified in period photos. That all speaks against them. Also speaking against these is the fact that they can also be found with all different sorts of maker marks, such as L/11, Juncker, L/58, etc, and many are certainly postwar creations IMO. Furthermore, most have the "1957 scrape" tool mark on the pin, which also suggests postwar production (in my opinion).

The only thing speaking in favor of these, is that they have been found on the postwar Souvenier boards. It is commonly thought that these boards were put together from leftover wartime-produced badges, so this suggests that some may have been around at the end of the war. I would tend to agree with this notion; that finding these on the boards is a good sign of originality. But the problem here is that the boards are definitely postwar, and without knowing exactly when S&L started new production of swastika-bearing badges, who can be sure about these questionable badges? For me, it is hard to point at something that is definitely postwar as evidence that it was made during the war. This seems counter intuitive to me, even though it may be exactly right.

We are still missing parts of the puzzle, and the best we can do is keep our eyes open for the evidence and update the threads with the new info.

Tom

Imo a wonderful differentiated answer, which a lot of collectors can live with (even the more than critical ones). Thanks Tom.

Regards,

Daniel

**John T** · 01-21-2013, 06:37 PM

Good point, I also wonder how many original FLL badges were destroyed with post war markings? I would think that some companies had limited production capacity while some had excess And perhaps saw the writing on the wall.

**Alex W.** · 01-22-2013, 06:43 AM

Tom, thanks for the very informative reply.

**John T** · 01-22-2013, 07:37 AM

Weitze has a board just listed with one of these...the company really would have to have tooled up quickly to make these to put them on boards when they could have just used what was on hand or strike more with what the available dies.

**Dietrich Maerz** · 01-22-2013, 08:48 AM

And in contrast to Tom's very balanced and factual comment an example how it is done in the real world:

1. The Article

INFO magazine of 1991, title "The newsworthy note!" Subtitle: "baseless rejection of a Retired Pilot Badge in Zinc" by Christian von Tettinek.

In the article the author concludes the originality of this piece by the fact that it was already published before (by Klietmann, etc...) and he also states the war reports show this type of badge (no pictures, one source: monthly report of the war victim care). He continues that these pieces came to the market in unworn condition from the stocks of the LDO reatial market where they survived the war due to the fact of the sales prohibition in January 1944. He concludes with authority (but without any facts): "The pieces in question are undoubtless originals with known provenance."

2. The Sting

In 1994 Harald Geissler, by then famous author of a compendium about the Iron Cross sold the very same badge which was pictured in the article to a collector in Germany. Geissler writes: "the Retired Pilot Badge with attached description of the presented piece, the price is DM 2,900,- whereas the piece has a catalog price of DM 3,250.- and is partially traded well above that."

(Remark: the other pieces are also doubtful respectively flat out fakes. He sells them all for a lower price but remarks that the real price is much higher!)

Attached Files

**Dietrich Maerz** · 01-22-2013, 09:30 AM

3. The Badge

It is exactly the same badge as in the article. Handwritten note: "Never saw another one on the market!"

The currect owner (son of the collector) sits in front of a huge amount of orders and medals. Some I could already identify as fakes (Oaklveaves, Oakleaves with Swords). A great deal was bought from Harald Geissler, always with the assurance of a good price and absolute originality. It looks like this collector was milked on the tune of several 10,000.- DM in the 1990 by Harald Geissler and others. Of course, nothing of that can be verified today despite the paid invoices and the letters (switched pieces and all that jazz...) and Harald Geissler remains in the center of the positive attention when Nimmergut et al meet at a nice old castle to discuss the state of the hobby and to celebrate their own importance!

It is not that I critizise the believe in the 80 or 90 that certain pieces were deemed good and were sold as such. This has always happened and will still continue to happen. What I critizise is the way these pieces were deemed original! It was basically: It is good because I say so!"

Now, that most of the new book authors (but by far not all! The latest EK1 book in Germany is testament to the old school in stating believes as facts without any back-up) try to confirm their reasoning with facts, be it in documents or on the forensic side, these old school guys like Nimmergut and Geissler and others (some English authors come to mind), defend their earlier findings, repeat them over and over again (Nimmergut and Geissler in their newest "works") and - just like small children would do - defy the new evidence by excluding the latest books on the topic from the bibliography and name the whole Internet as full of lay people. It is that easy, close your eyes and the boogey man is gone!

That this approach hurts the collectors, continues the cycle of fakes and does not good for the hooby doesn't dawn on these "gentlemen." The main thing is that they don't have to admitt that they sold fakes over a period of 20 years and that they negelected to reserach the majority of what they wrote about. And that they get their money!

Dietrich

Attached Files

**Leroy** · 01-22-2013, 11:02 AM

Some very interesting comments by Dietrich, which reveal not so much what was actually done by S&L after the war, but rather the actions of certain people (either carelessly or intentionally - most probably the latter in many cases) to transform postwar completed and assembled pieces (and - at some point in time, almost certainly in the 1950's - newly struck pieces) into pieces which were completely "done" wartime.

John T's point earlier makes good sense. There is no evidence that S&L created new dies in the immediate postwar period in order to manufacture pieces which it had not made during the war. Instead, it seems to have acted as a sort of "clearing house" for the barter or sale of leftover wartime stock of both itself and many other Ludenscheid-based companies. In some cases, this consisted of pieces already completed at war's end. In others, the pieces were ones which had been completed but had not yet received their finishes. Finally (at least in the immediate postwar years) component actual wartime parts were assembled (most of the time sloppily) into "completed pieces".

At some point (but, again, there is no evidence that this occured before the 1950's - most likely 1953 and later) S&L probably began re-striking, from original dies, new pieces as replacements for those where original stock was unavailable.

If a piece (such as a DK or Retired Pilot) is found on a legitimate and untampered with "barter board" from the immediate postwar period then that is, to me, conclusive proof that S&L made such pieces during the war. (S&L VP Preuss confirmed that S&L had received orders for the DK in July, 1944, and the "commercial market" for LW badges - which had been limited only to sales through the official LW "store" - was opened up in November, 1944 and price control guidelines were published in Uniformenmarkt that month.) Whether any of these pieces ever saw distribution is unknown.

Look at the Bomber clasp in the photo below. Note that the reverse "cut-out" is for a Fighter arrow, not a bomb. That might indicate that S&L made some Bomber clasps like this during the war (doubtful, as the bomb itself is upside down). More likely, it is an indicator that the clasp was assembled postwar, still using original parts.

Attached Files

**Blitzbundeln** · 01-22-2013, 11:05 AM

In Deutsche Uniformen-Zeitschrift issue 4 1944 these badges were offered for RM 4,- Then I would say: badges in this time period are in zinc and not Buntmetall. So, in my opinion these badges could be original.

Greetz,
Blitz

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