Warning: session_start(): open(/var/cpanel/php/sessions/ea-php74/sess_ef8264d4266a0b9b6bcc1c4484ea447a56926afa3bd0bf84, O_RDWR) failed: No space left on device (28) in /home/devwehrmacht/public_html/forums/includes/vb5/frontend/controller/page.php on line 71 Warning: session_start(): Failed to read session data: files (path: /var/cpanel/php/sessions/ea-php74) in /home/devwehrmacht/public_html/forums/includes/vb5/frontend/controller/page.php on line 71 Aircrew Qualification Mystery - Help Please! - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums
FlandersMilitaria

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Aircrew Qualification Mystery - Help Please!

Collapse
X
Collapse
 
  • Page of 2
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
Previous 1 2 template Next
    #1

    Aircrew Qualification Mystery - Help Please!

    Hi guys

    I am not sure quite where to take this question but I reasoned that my Luftwaffe awards friends would be a good place to start!

    I have two sets of documents to Luftwaffe aircrew members who were not qualified as pilots, observers or radio operators. From what I know thus far, each of them was treated differently in terms of their qualification. Both flew from 1940, so were early flyers.

    The first is Willi Hoffhann, who flew with 5./KG 30 until his crew failed to return from a mission to North Africa on 23rd January 1943. As you can see below, he was awarded the ROAG award badge in 1940 and can be seen wearing it throughout his career. His highest awards were the Gold Bomber Clasp and Goblet of Honour.

    The second is Werner Petersen, who flew with 2./KG 126, 5./KG 53 and other units. I have only just started researching this man but photos dated 1943 on the back, show he carries no ROAG or other award badge to go with his DKiG and Gold Bomber Clasp. He eventually was awarded the 200 mission pendant for his clasp.

    So - is this an example of two similarly qualified men being treated differently or is there something else going on? The only substantive difference I can see is that Petersen is noted as 'der reserve' and Hoffmann is not. Did this affect things? I only just received the Petersen group so it is early days for my research. I have his Soldbuch but have not found any other clues yet.

    Thanks for the help.

    Images below with Hoffmann first:
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Tim O.; 11-10-2012, 07:18 AM.
    Tags: None
    #2
    ...and Werner Petersen. Note - no aircrew badge is worn but I have evidence he flew over 200 missions.
    Attached Files

    Comment

      #3
      Tim, is it possible to determine what specialty schools they attended?

      Comment

        #4
        mystery

        GENTLEMEN,
        in these two situations the reason for not wearing their qualification badges
        might have been due to a court marshall verdict having their licenses
        temporarly suspended and consequently followed by not being allowed
        to wear the relevant badges during suspension time.
        The wear of any award is not affected.
        Being the fact that both kept flying their combat missions just shows
        that most likely their disciplinary punishment had been in force only
        when "off duty"
        Below I attached a brief comment on this matter .
        Best regards
        Wolf










        der Begriff "Fliegerische Unzucht" existiert noch heute bei der Luftwaffe. Es ist der Gegenbegriff zur "Fliegerischen Zucht und Ordnung". Hat also mit sittlichem Verhalten, aber nichts mit dem sexuellen Begriff zu tun! Bei der alten Luftwaffe stand er sogar im Militärstrafgesetzbuch. Mit diesem Begriff wurde und wird ein verbotenes Verhalten gegen die Flugsicherung beschrieben, z. B. verbotenes Unterfliegen einer Brücke, verbotener Kunstflug über dem Wohnhaus der Freundin usw.

        Dieses Verhalten führte sehr oft zu Unfällen mit tödlichem Ausgang bzw. Aufschlagbrand unter Gefährdung Unbeteiligter. Die Strafen gingen bis zur Degradierung oder sogar Ablösung vom Flugdienst. Kam darauf an, wie der Truppensonderdienst der Luftwaffe (Kriegsgerichtsrat) das Delikt selbst sah. Ein Verwandter von mir wurde wegen "Lösen einer Bahnhofsfahrkarte" also Anfliegen eines Bahnhofes im Tiefflug zum Ablesen des Bahnhofsschildes mit 2 Wochen verschärftem Offiziersarrest verknackt!!

        Comment

          #5
          Hi Greg

          Thanks for the help. I have the Soldbuch for Petersen but sadly no detail for Hoffmann. It's my first group with a Soldbuch so I don't know my way around it too well and my German is rubbish. I think these are the relevant pages:
          Attached Files

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by herkules View Post
            GENTLEMEN,
            in these two situations the reason for not wearing their qualification badges
            might have been due to a court marshall verdict having their licenses
            temporarly suspended and consequently followed by not being allowed
            to wear the relevant badges during suspension time.
            The wear of any award is not affected.
            Being the fact that both kept flying their combat missions just shows
            that most likely their disciplinary punishment had been in force only
            when "off duty"
            Below I attached a brief comment on this matter .
            Best regards
            Wolf










            der Begriff "Fliegerische Unzucht" existiert noch heute bei der Luftwaffe. Es ist der Gegenbegriff zur "Fliegerischen Zucht und Ordnung". Hat also mit sittlichem Verhalten, aber nichts mit dem sexuellen Begriff zu tun! Bei der alten Luftwaffe stand er sogar im Militärstrafgesetzbuch. Mit diesem Begriff wurde und wird ein verbotenes Verhalten gegen die Flugsicherung beschrieben, z. B. verbotenes Unterfliegen einer Brücke, verbotener Kunstflug über dem Wohnhaus der Freundin usw.

            Dieses Verhalten führte sehr oft zu Unfällen mit tödlichem Ausgang bzw. Aufschlagbrand unter Gefährdung Unbeteiligter. Die Strafen gingen bis zur Degradierung oder sogar Ablösung vom Flugdienst. Kam darauf an, wie der Truppensonderdienst der Luftwaffe (Kriegsgerichtsrat) das Delikt selbst sah. Ein Verwandter von mir wurde wegen "Lösen einer Bahnhofsfahrkarte" also Anfliegen eines Bahnhofes im Tiefflug zum Ablesen des Bahnhofsschildes mit 2 Wochen verschärftem Offiziersarrest verknackt!!
            I don't think this is likely as I have photos of Petersen as an Unteroffizier and a Feldwebel with no badge. From other groups I have owned it seems a court-marshall would prevent promotion and award of decorations and there is no evidence of that in this case.

            Comment

              #7
              Here is Petersen as an Unteroffizier - no badge present then either.
              Attached Files

              Comment

                #8
                Is it too simple to think that he did not like to wear or lost it and did not bother to replace it. I do not think it was mandarory to wear these badges. Pilots quite often did not wear their qulification badge.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Originally posted by kaiserwilhelm2 View Post
                  Is it too simple to think that he did not like to wear or lost it and did not bother to replace it. I do not think it was mandarory to wear these badges. Pilots quite often did not wear their qulification badge.
                  Hi Wilhelm

                  I guess it is possible... I have seen photos of men who wore just an iron cross and ignored their other awards but Petersen seems to have worn everything else, including a ribbon bar so it seems odd he would not wear his qualification badge. Here he is again:
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Hi Tim,

                    Interesting little riddle, hope we can figure out the answer.

                    I am sure you already checked this, but are there any awards listed in his soldbuch, these are normally shown on page 22?

                    Tom
                    If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                    New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                    [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                    Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post
                      Hi Tim,

                      Interesting little riddle, hope we can figure out the answer.

                      I am sure you already checked this, but are there any awards listed in his soldbuch, these are normally shown on page 22?

                      Tom
                      Good point Tom. All awards for which I have certificates are listed...but nothing about an aircrew badge.

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Another quirk of this man's career. He had flown 200 combat missions with the bomber arm by 1942. He then transferred to the specialist Minensuchgruppe, which he continued to fly with until the end of the war. It seems none of the minesweeping missions counted as Feindfluge. Despite the fact aircrew were being killed by exploding mines and Allied aircraft I assume this unit was by definition operating in home waters and missions did not therefore qualify. As a result, when the numbered mission pendants were introduced in April 1944 it seems Petersen's feindfluge tally had been 'frozen' and he was awarded the 200 mission pendant. A photograph in the grouping shows his crew celebrating their 200th mission but the aircraft in the background is a Heinkel 111 and not the Ju52 flown by the Minensuchgruppe, so I can only think this was a retrospective award. The back of the photo refers to the 200th mission. Petersen is on the right and wearing rank insignia for a Feldwebel, although by now he was an Oberfeldwebel and I therefore believe the photo and award are two years apart in time.

                        Another anomaly!
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Hi Tim,

                          It indeed is very odd that all these awards are listed, but yet he has no aircrew badge. Does the soldbuch say what he was trained as? Clearly he was on a bomber, so was there any position on a bomber that would not qualify for an aircrew badge (i.e., such as a medic or something)??

                          My German is pretty bad, but on page 19 it says he was in "flugzeugfuhrerschule", so wouldn't that be pilot school and meaning that he was being trained as a pilot but didn't finish the course? If he was a reservist, is it possible that he was a civilian pilot rather than a military pilot. In that regard, he was allowed to fly missions, but never completed Pilot school and therefore didn't get his military Pilot Badge?

                          Tom
                          If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                          New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                          [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                          Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Hi Tom

                            You are absolutely correct: I remember reading about pilots trained for civilan flying that were even awarded the RK but never received a Luftwaffe pilot badge.

                            You got me pretty excited that this could be the answer until I realised his Flugbuch, which covers January 1940 to March 1945, records him as 'Fluggast' on every flight and other men as 'Führer'.

                            I have never seen another Flugbuch where the bomb load is recorded against flights, so this was clearly of particular interest to him and I wondered if he might be some sort of air-dropped weapons specialist but that is purely imagination at present.

                            I'm sure I am missing something here...I'm just not sure what!

                            Thanks for the help.

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Mysteries ..

                              I've seen pics where a certain badge is missing, other pics of same person revealed that other badges were missing, some just only wore their German cross in gold, others only wore one or more navy badges etc., loads of variations possible.

                              Maybe he liked his EK 1 better than his qualification badge, maybe he had to make a choice because he couldn't find someone to put on some extra loops on the jacket at that time ?
                              Who knows .. ?

                              Can't believe they let him in unqualyfied as a ROAG, unless he was a just a simple gunner and the badges sold out..

                              Jos.

                              Comment

                              Previous 1 2 template Next

                              Users Viewing this Thread

                              Collapse

                              There are currently 3 users online. 0 members and 3 guests.

                              Most users ever online was 10,032 at 08:13 PM on 09-28-2024.

                              Working...
                              X