Glider Pilot Badge from Crete

[Thomas Durante]

I can not find the Stalag number but it was very close to Luckenwalde.

Stalag III-A was located in Luckenwalde.

Tom

[90th Light]

Stalag III-A was located in Luckenwalde.

Tom

Thanks Tom,

I appreciate that missing bit of information regarding the Stalag number. This will also help Mike when he gets to see this medical officer's record. If he was in IIIA then we might have our answer. The other possibility is that he may have been with IIIA veterans on his way out of Germany in 1945. Hopefully Mike might be able to get his record soon.

I have to say, I will be surprised indeed if this glider badge did come from "Kreta" in 1941 but I am giving consideration to all possibilities when it comes to these. My "p.s." in post number 23 is based on the fact that zinc had entered mainstream German production by 1940. Take cap grommets for example, in M34 sidecaps or tropical M40 caps. All caps dated 1940 & 1941 have zinc grommets. In 1942, a few caps have steel grommets and by 1943, many caps have steel grommets. Now does this also apply to combat/ qualification badges ? Probably not but it is worth investigating.

Also, we see zinc being used along side brass, tombak & nickel in 1940 with "pot/ monkey metal" being used in 1943 along side zinc. Let not lose sight of that.

I also agree with your point that the maker of the ball hinge glider might not be "RK". The finish on the wreath of my ball hinge glider is a heavy nickel plating with frosting/ burnishing which is a lot closer to the finish seen on some examples of panzer badges made by "AS in Triangle" than the thinner shinny finish found on a PAB by "RK". My question which you have noted and answered is, when were the RK or Triangle AS panzer badges first issued. I note your answer of "1942" and if we are sure of this date then that is good enough for me.

At the end of the day, I am not too worried about this one being from "Kreta". If it does turn out to be picked up in 1941 then that would be fantastic. Stijn's research into these would seem to indicate that the ball hinge gilder being an early badge is very unlikely. His study of these badges is certainly the best to date and has alerted us to the fact that the badges made by "Juncker" or "BSW" are the most likely original badges to be encountered. I would be surprised if this was not the the case on Kreta in May 1941.

On the other hand, I am not dismissing any possiblities which Mike's find has presented to us all. Stijn himself has stated more than once that we have to stay open minded on this one until more evidence comes to light.

Quietly however, I am now feeling very happy that the ball hinge is finally being accepted by a wider circle of collectors as being the legitimate war time version of the badge which it is, with yet another veteran brought back example coming to light,

Chris

[90th Light]

I was talking to Mike recently. He obtained the war records of this New Zealand soldier. What is now confirmed, he was a Medical Officer POW in Stalag IIIA when the war ended in 1945. Thus we now have a second "Ball Hinge Glider Badge" found in NZ after WW2 that can be attributed as a "veteran bring back" from Stalag III, located near Luckenwalde.

Given the later war nature of this "Gablonz" badge, one can correctly assume that it is one of the LW badges picked up in the hoard of badges found when the POW's went looking for food in April 1945. What we do not know is if this officer got the badge himself or was given it by another POW. However, it is the Stalag III "Luckenwalde" connection that is interesting.


I have been both encouraged and heartened by this find and confirmation of the connection,

Chris

I was very fortunate to have a good friend arrive at home yesterday to show me some items that belonged to her late father in law.
He was a Medical Officer with the 23 Bn 2nd NZEF and a veteran of Greece & Crete where he was eventually taken as a prisoner of war.
As a MO he was in the thick of the conflict at Malame, treating between 500 - 700 Kiwi and German wounded ( according to official records ) and was himself wounded. As a pow, he was taken back to Greece and continued to treat both allied & enemy wounded eventually being sent to work in a hospital in Athens and ultimately ending up in a Stalag in Germany for the duration of the war.
The Glider Pilots badge was amongst the items that he returned with

Nice to see an item with 100% provenance.

Mike

Hi Dale
Thanks for your comments and the link to previous discussions on this type of badge.
I'm applying for the vets war service records ( on behaif of his family ) which will help shed a little bit more light on his movements up to when he was liberated at the end of the war. This will also tell me which Stalag he was in which may support the theory of the badges being picked up at the end of hostilities. One point to note though, based on that theory, these badges were picked up in May 45. According to official records, he must have been liberated from his Stalag before the end of the war as he was repatriated back to NZ in April 45, most likely in very poor health as many long term POWs were.
I'm sure when I get his file I'll be able to establish a more accurate time line of events.

Cheers
Mike

[Brian S]

Looks like Mike still had fingers as of mid July this year, why isn't he posting more about it?

[Tim Calvert]

For Chris.....and your "story"

[Brian S]

Crete zinc 1941. i do not believe.

Badge in vet belongings yes but exactly when and where acquired?

Is there a journal entry documenting this Gift.

Still a stretch based on conclusions with as yet unseen evidence to this specific badge.

[Sebastien T]

Crete zinc 1941. i do not believe.

Me either

Seb

[Thomas Durante]

Crete zinc 1941. i do not believe.

Yep, exactly what I thought when I read this.

Tom

[90th Light]

Hello Tom and others,

when Mike initially got the badge, he presumed it came from Crete because this New Zealand soldier was a medical officer in 23 Battalion NZEF who served and was taken prisoner on Crete. Then spending the rest of the war as a POW. Mike could not see, how else this officer could have picked up such a badge when he started this thread.

It was not until the April 1945 Stalag III-A, located near Luckenwalde connection was posted on this thread that he began to join the dots. If I have correctly understood what Mike told me then this NZ medical officers official military records show he was in Stalag III-B. Of course for those who know their Stalag history will know;

"In February 1945 prisoners from Stalag III-B Furstenberg were evacuated to Stalag III-A, adding to the already overcrowded and unhygienic conditions. Finally, as the Russians approached the guards fled the camp leaving the prisoners to be liberated by the Red Army on 22 April 1945."

Mike is very busy with a lot of other things at the moment. However, he is now aware of your queries/ concerns and will post on this thread as soon as he can find the time. My understanding is that he got the "Ball Hinge Glider" badge and other items directly from the veteran's daughter in law. The badge has never been in the possession of any person except the veteran and his family since it was brought back to New Zealand in April 1945.

I will leave any further comments/ details about this find until Mike has posted,

Chris

[Erwin]

Mike is very busy with a lot of other things at the moment. However, he is now aware of your queries/ concerns and will post on this thread as soon as he can find the time.

Quote Chris




I will be very surprised if we ever see anything from Mike.

[Brian S]

For the record if it matters, no one is suggesting Mike is making up stories. I think this just pointed in a direction for him that just doesn't fit from the evidence. In other words I think Mike came to a conclusion that just doesn't fit. No harm no foul. And of course 90th jumped foot and mouth into it because it fit his narrative.

[Tim Calvert]

Agreed.
My horse beating picture was aimed at Chris's story, not Mike's.

[90th Light]

For the record if it matters, no one is suggesting Mike is making up stories. I think this just pointed in a direction for him that just doesn't fit from the evidence. In other words I think Mike came to a conclusion that just doesn't fit. No harm no foul. And of course 90th jumped foot and mouth into it because it fit his narrative.

Your posting Brian, is good motivation to keep that "foot and mouth" research going

More facts about this veteran;

1941 most New Zealanders captured on Crete were held temporarily in a transit camp near Galatas. From there he is moved to a POW camp in Greece and put to work as a doctor by the Germans. There is a web site actually mentioning him as part of this

Then some time before November 1941 he is moved to Stalag VIII-B at Lamsdorf because there is photo of him at that Stalag in November 1941. Lamsdorf is now called Łambinowice, is a small town in Poland, once the location of one of Germany's largest prisoner of war camps for allied servicemen. The camp originally opened during the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71, and was also a prisoner of war camp in the First World War. In 1939 it housed Polish prisoners, then from 1940 until it was evacuated in January 1945, it housed more then 100,000 prisoners from Britain and other Commonwealth countries, as well as from the Soviet Union, Poland and various European countries occupied by the Germans.

In 1943 he is one of the many prisoners from Lamsdorf were transferred to other camps, before the number was changed from VIII-B to 344. It is at this stage he may have been sent to Stalag III-B. However, I need to research exactly who was in VIII-C, VIII-D and the later VIII-B because these are the new camps formed in other parts of the Reich when it is divided and becomes 344

Either way, he seems to have missed the "Death March" of Stalag 344 in January 1945 because he was in Stalag III-B at that time.

This plus the earlier research (Stalag III-A) has proved to be a real help for Mike as he works through the hand written stuff he has

Chris

[90th Light]

Agreed.
My horse beating picture was aimed at Chris's story, not Mike's.

If it stories you want then there is no "beating" this one, dead horses, FJR, gliders and all

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/schol...2-23Ba-c5.html

Love this bit of it but its one of many in a amazing read;

"A German officer captured by C Company was found to have on his person a large red Nazi flag, which he explained was the ground sign for the dropping of supplies from the air. Major Thomason, now the battalion second-in-command, and Lieutenant Thomas spread out the flag to see what happened. To their delight, containers with a heavy mortar and a supply of bombs for it, snipers' rifles, LMGs, ammunition, hand grenades, entrenching tools and food were dropped from the planes which were coming regularly over the area. The mortar was quickly brought into action by Thomas and the Bofors gun which the enemy had been using near the ‘drome was knocked out. The value of this weapon having been proved, volunteers now went out to secure more enemy equipment which was lying outside the battalion wire. Private Schroder13 of C Company was so fearless page 70 in moving in the open when low-flying aircraft were overhead that they apparently mistook him for a German and he was able to collect or destroy several containers."


Chris

[Tim Calvert]

Hehehe..... I do love the good stories!