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    #1

    JMME PO Badge - Original?

    Hi guys,

    Wanted to discuss this JMME-marked Pilot Observer badge. I have had this one filed as "questionable", but the more I look at it, the more I don't like it and would love to hear some more opinions on it.

    The first red flag for me is the wreath. As you can see, its a Meybauer wreath design. We know that Juncker sometimes supplied eagle and/or wreath parts to JMME and Deumer on occassion, but never with Meybauer that I know of. I don't discount the possibility that Meybauer could have shared parts with JMME too, but it seems pretty unlikely to me that they did. If JMME was already going to Juncker to get eagle parts, why not get the wreaths there too? Why go to a totally different manufacturer like Meybauer. Doesn't make sense, but this is only one small questionable aspect to this badge.
    Attached Files
    If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

    New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
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    #2
    Here are some other closeups
    Attached Files
    If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

    New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
    [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

    Comment

      #3
      The next questionable feature is the lack of obverse detailing to the eagle. The eagle is a J3 Juncker eagle, and below is a compare of this questionable badge next to an original J3 eagle. Notice specifically the internal wing feathering of both badges; the original is alot more pronounced and well detailed.
      Attached Files
      If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

      New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
      [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
      Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

      Comment

        #4
        We also know that the Meybauer wreath is a favorite among fakers, it has been copied to near perfection and can be found on all sorts of different badges with all kinds of different maker marks. I have seen alot of these Meybauer wreaths on fake Paratrooper badges. The telltale sign with all these fakes that use this wreath type is their smaller size. Here is a good discussion we had with the fake dimensions:

        http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...er+para&page=2

        Here is a fake Paratrooper badge that is very similar to the Questionable PO we are discussing. Both appear to be made from zinc (correct for later-war badges), but both have a lack of good obverse detailing compared with originals. Also notice the softer edges and questionable look to the finishes used.
        Attached Files
        If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

        New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
        [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
        Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

        Comment

          #5
          Here is a compare of the Questionable PO next to the fake para badge. Notice the seemingly identical hinge and also thicker pin compared with originals. Rivets on both seem to be a good match, same with the finish IMO.

          It would be very helpful that whoever has this Questionable PO can provide us with good dimensions of the wreath. I have a feeling that the dimensions will show that it is smaller than original Meybauer wreaths, just like in the case with the fake Paratrooper badges.
          Attached Files
          If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

          New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
          [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
          Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

          Comment

            #6
            And finally, here are a few more badges that use this same fake Meybauer wreath, but with a mixture of badge parts and other maker marks.

            First one is also marked JMME, and has a zinc wreath. But notice the hardware is the type found on non-zinc badges; a huge red flag IMO. The eagle is a Juncker like the questionable one that started this thread, however its a copy of a J2 design this time.

            Second badge uses the same wreath, but it has an FLL-type eagle. Again, very questionable hardware on this one and no doubt for me a fake.

            Third badge again uses a Meybauer wreath, but this time combines it with a copy of a BSW eagle, and marked with Deumer! Quite a combination, and another clear fake IMO.
            Attached Files
            If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

            New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
            [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
            Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

            Comment

              #7
              Fake, with FLL-style eagle and Meybauer wreath
              Attached Files
              If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

              New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
              [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
              Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

              Comment

                #8
                And lastly, a fake with BSW eagle, Meybauer wreath and marked Deumer!
                Attached Files
                If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                Comment

                  #9
                  Hi guys,

                  Little update. The owner of this questionable badge has provided the dimensions, here they are:

                  Questionable Badge
                  H = 51.5
                  W = 41.5

                  As I suspected, these dimensions are exactly in line with the FAKE badges. If you look at the other thread I linked in where I discussed all the measurements of the Fake Meybauer Para badges in comparison with the originals, you can see that the fakes are noticably smaller. Here is a small synopsis of the dimenions from that other thread:

                  Here is the average dimensions of 6 FAKE Meybauer Para badges:

                  H = 52.0 mm
                  W = 41.4 mm

                  I also have 2 ORIGINAL Meybauer Paras in my collection, as well as have 7 others on file with accurate dimensions, all very consistent with the following measurements:

                  H = 53.5 mm
                  W = 42.4 mm

                  As you can see, the fake Meybauer wreaths are a good bit smaller than originals. So I think this can be considered confirmation that the "questionable" badge that started this thread is indeed a cast reproduction. It is actually even a little smaller than the average dimension of the other fakes I have on file that use this type of Meybauer wreath.

                  Don't be shy, you guys are being awfully quiet here today. Did I nail this one perfectly, or am I off base

                  Tom
                  If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                  New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                  [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                  Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Tom,

                    Only online for about 20 seconds, so I apologize for the short answer but the badge that started this thread sure looks like a Tucker to me!!!!

                    Same wreath, no?
                    Most importantly, same style of fakin' and bakin!

                    Gotta run,
                    Tim
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by Tim Calvert; 07-19-2011, 11:01 PM.

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Hi Tim,

                      Yep, that is the same fake Meybauer wreath. Also appears to have the same muted look to the eagle details and very similar finish on the eagles. Even the rivets and maker mark appear identical, very good match to the questionable one that started this thread. Perhaps its a Tucker special as well..

                      Tom
                      If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                      New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                      [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                      Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Bottom line: If you're not sure...MEASURE!

                        Comment

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