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    #1

    Estand airgunner badge

    Per request I will start a thread on my badge on Estand.
    These have been discussed several times before in the past. They are a Transitional badge when Deumer was changing from the early badges to the zinc badges. I have seen them with and with lighting bolts and have two of these as well as the late zinc ones.
    David R.
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    #2
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      #3
      ;
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        #4
        ;[
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          #5
          Hi David,

          I have to say that I do not like this Deumer, looks to be casting. The first flag for me is the very soft edges of the reverse and pitting around the catch area. The obverse detail is also weaker than originals Deumers.

          The hardware is also unlike originals. It has a hinge plate trying to imitate those found on Deumer zinc badges, but its not the correct configuration for Deumer. Your badge has a simple barrel hinge attached to an oblong plate, and is NOT the way it was done with originals. Also the fact that the wreath appears to be made from buntmetal, so why does it feature a hingeplate and catchplate? Only Deumer wreaths made of ZINC would feature these plates.

          The rivets are also close, but not correct for Deumers. In my opinion, your badge is a cast reproduction.

          Tom
          If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

          New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
          [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
          Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

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            #6
            Defiantly not cast (see photos) Yes the hinge plate is a Deumer (they made two types with plates, long barrel and short ) Mine is the short version. I have another one with a buntmetal wreath and zinc eagle with the long barrel setup.
            The cast look is due to the corrosion damage NOT casting. (bubbling of the finish)
            How did you measure the rivet spacing ?? And yes they are correct for a buntmetal rivet. In fact the zinc eagle rivets are struck the same way,not just smashed over like the very late war ones are.

            Here is a link to a buntmedal badge with the same pin and catch set up
            go to Ivans post #18 and you will see the badge.

            http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...mer+air+gunner




            David R.


            H



            Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post
            Hi David,

            I have to say that I do not like this Deumer, looks to be casting. The first flag for me is the very soft edges of the reverse and pitting around the catch area. The obverse detail is also weaker than originals Deumers.

            The hardware is also unlike originals. It has a hinge plate trying to imitate those found on Deumer zinc badges, but its not the correct configuration for Deumer. Your badge has a simple barrel hinge attached to an oblong plate, and is NOT the way it was done with originals. Also the fact that the wreath appears to be made from buntmetal, so why does it feature a hingeplate and catchplate? Only Deumer wreaths made of ZINC would feature these plates.

            The rivets are also close, but not correct for Deumers. In my opinion, your badge is a cast reproduction.

            Tom
            Attached Files
            Last edited by David R.; 01-10-2010, 08:00 PM.

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              #7
              .
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                #8
                Hi David,

                Thanks for the additional pics, but they only help to confirm my opinion of this being a cast reproduction. Those vertical marks on the edge of the wreath are not typical shear marks, but rather saw marks. They are much to uniform and thick to be shear marks that we are used to seeing.

                If you care to take a look at a typical Deumer hinge, you will notice that the base of the hinge itself is much thinner than yours is. I am not talking about the hinge plate, but rather the hinge itself. Yours is much wider at the base than a textbook Deumer hinge.

                Tom
                If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

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                  #9
                  I have to agree with the so-called shear marks. They should not be that uniform.

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                    #10
                    Hi David, I have to agree with Tom and Frank here mate...I have a zinc Deumer with the short barrel hinge and it's significantly different to this one... Sorry bud, this is not an original IMHO! Here's a pic of the reverse of mine to compare old son., despite the late war production the badges are markedly different.
                    Attached Files
                    Cheers, Steve
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------
                    "Next to a battle lost, the saddest thing is a battle won." Arthur Wellesley — Duke of Wellington

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                      #11
                      Hi David

                      Just as I suspected, this badge has some major issues IMO.

                      Tom just about said it all, so no need to repeat, but notice also the file marks around the catch.

                      Some of this badge might ones have been a Deumer zinc ROAG, bu has to many issues to be trusted as an ROAG with cut-off bolts.

                      I have attached an image from my database of the plated small block hinge. Notice that the barrel plate has the same diameter as the barrel on this badge.

                      All this red corrosion, could IMO very well have been don deliberate to remove focus from the issues this badge has.

                      Sorry to bring bad news, as much as I hate it, we have all been there some way or the other David.

                      Best Regards

                      Karsten
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                      "Try not to become a man of success but rather try to become a man of value."

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