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**François SAEZ** · 12-03-2003, 08:44 AM

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**skip** · 12-03-2003, 09:17 AM

Wow a new pilot badge maker, well its all typical BSW though is´nt it.
Still a maker that I will be keeping an eye out for in the future.
Francois, I take it that you think the mm is done originally and not a post war add on.

Skip

**François SAEZ** · 12-03-2003, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by skip

Francois, I take it that you think the mm is done originally and not a post war add on.

Skip

Well Skip,

of course I can be wrong with my logic:
but the second one (repaired) comes in a group from the family, the maker is known, it looks like a BSW, I only have seen 2 from different sources (I own both), some days ago nobody knew that Otto Schickle of Pforzheim made Legion Condor Panzer badges http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=37873

If it was a fake, we will find mistakes in the badge, I see no interest to mark a badge with a non well know maker, last but not least ..... the price I have paid make no sense

But again, I can be wrong and accept to be corrected - that is why I post: to have different opinions than mine

**Tim Calvert** · 12-03-2003, 02:44 PM

FS,

Having a bird in your hand is only surpassed by having two in your hand (keep them out of your bush!).

Are the maker marks identical?? How do they compare to each other under magnification? Construction techniques typical for the period??? At this point, you are the best judge. Obviously some manufacturers shared parts so there is a chance.

If there is something fishey.....well, coming from the family is great but not necessarily fool-proof.

**Joseph D'Errico** · 12-03-2003, 04:36 PM

Hello Gentlemen,

Interesting topic at a timely period for me as I am trying to establish a criteria for the unmarked as well as the newer maker marks that are not seen often on badges that look like what we do know to be from known makers. I think we walk a fine line in maintaining the excepted standards by which we use as the basis for authenticating, but , in contrast we also have the task of reviewing new information that has been brought forward, for review.

I think that, that aspect of new discoveries is exciting and challenging. Taking into account that even if you were to speak to a person that worked for GWL and they said that, “Yes, we made the textbook GWL Pilot badge as well as the unmarked badge; reason we just wanted to use both the proposed design, but only our first choice would be the one that bore our companies logo” And if this same person that worked for GWL was able to provide documented proof that he did in fact work for GWL , would that be conclusive enough to re-write the theory on the un-marked Pilot badge.

So, my question is; what would it take to canonize a piece? I wonder why non of our German members are not able to find a surviving person from any of these firms, catalogs et. Better act quick on that one as most of them will not be around in five more years if any.

In reference to the example posted, badge looks to be a BSW, maker mark J.Deutschbein Euskirchen, while not typical, possible.

I find that it comes down to the following possibilities and I am sure that their are many more, just trying to take a simple approach and not get to far from the bench;

- BSW badge with a different maker, all period
- BSW badge with a post war maker mark, not likely that they would choose this maker, never know, really need better pics before commenting on that aspect.
- Not a BSW piece?

My thoughts are that the badge is an original, as well being made of BSW components. Perhaps this was out sourced to J.Deutschbein for assembly therefore being the last to take place in the order of construction they were permitted to use their company’s logo on the badge rather than BSW.
Just trying to keep an open mind to possibilities and think outside the box, so to speak.

I think the tell tale will be the makers mark, as Tim pointed out. Coming from the family adds more province to the theory. Interesting to see the comparison of the makers marks, if they are identical in nature, well that would be VERY interesting. I am really looking forward to seeing those marks.

Best,
JD

**François SAEZ** · 12-03-2003, 04:54 PM

More pics tomorrow

**mmiller** · 12-04-2003, 09:31 AM

Food

Tim,

Get your little 'kitty' (politically correct choice of words) out of there. Hey, wait a second......is that a Balloon Observers badge on the third Pilot from the right?

Back on track- The badge of Francois' looks pretty convincing. I would be interested in the weight of the J.Deutschbein Euskirchen badge, not as a guarantee of authenticity, but as a simple starting point as to whether the badge is from a BSW die or not.

Not that it means anything, but does anyone know where in Germany Euskirchen is located? If it is Bavaria, which is closer to Wien, than say to Berlin, then the sharing of components from BSW is a bit more plausible.

Looking forward to some more pix, a weight, and a side-by-side image of both maker marked badges.

Mark

**Joseph D'Errico** · 12-04-2003, 10:20 AM

Too Funny

Best,
JD

**Jos L C** · 12-04-2003, 10:20 AM

There's a J.Deutschbein Euskirchen Parabadge floating around somewhere..
Don't know if a forummember has it...,I think I saw it in this forum..!?
I'm curious if that Parabadge maybe matches the BSW parabadge..
If so,we're up to something..!!

Mark,
What are these dogs..??
They don't like pussy..?

Jos.

**mmiller** · 12-04-2003, 11:02 AM

Wow, look what we discovered with a little digital enhancement!!!

**François SAEZ** · 12-04-2003, 03:59 PM

Well,

I took some pics, you will see variations/differences
I don't know how to mix 2 images
Pic are taken on a certain angle
I have used a flash

I will post and read you comments tomorrow

1 - badge not repaired

**François SAEZ** · 12-04-2003, 04:00 PM

1 - b

**François SAEZ** · 12-04-2003, 04:02 PM

1 - c

**François SAEZ** · 12-04-2003, 04:04 PM

1 - d

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