Juncker FJ Badge

[Luftm40]

well...I got it from our estand, so hopefully this won't be an issue....

[Jos L C]

The thing is still..,do we have better pics..?

We have to define if it's true what we think..,it's a very difficult matter.
The badge looks great but the pics don't reveal what we like to see..

IF this badge turns out to be a superb casting than better beware...
We've to work hard,much harder than we did and howmany are out there..?

I'd like to see the swas super close...

Maybe we're on a new field or maybe we've to go to the beginning of the thread..

It's not the badge nor the dealer,but we've to stay sharp....

Jos.

[Luftm40]

Well, I've exceeded the capability of my camera....

[ERIC S.]

WOW!!! If that one's a fake It's the best damn fake I ever saw in a para badge.
Now that it is mentioned, the swas edges do appear bevelled a bit - I didn't notice it either on the first sets of pics. Any signs of cast marks on the wreath Andy? The hinge looks good and the position of the catch (high) look to be Juncker all the way, and that "roughness" you find under the hinge on the Juncker Paras is there also. Even the rings around the rivits are there too. The inside and outside edges appear to be hand finished (at 2o'clock and 7o'clock) when viewing the reverse pic. One thing seems a little off though - Does the finish on the front of the wreath seem "shiny" or is it just me? If this is a casting it's down right scary.
ERIC

[J Temple-West]

One thing seems a little off though - Does the finish on the front of the wreath seem "shiny" or is it just me? If this is a casting it's down right scary.
ERIC[/QUOTE]
Eric, you beat me to it... And , very scary...

Here's mine, when you compare them does it make things any clearer??

[Spitfire]

Here's...

... a link to my Junker Para Badge.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ker+Para+Badge

When held in hand, frontal detail is extremely good and sloping "L" on the mm's.

Al

[Spitfire]

If you...

...follow the above link, you will notice on my badge(the first one) and the example posted by Jos, that there is a tooling mark on the front of the swas on the arm at the nine o'clock position on the inside corner.

Hope this helps,

Al

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

Interesting discussion so far!

Andy, could you please post some accurate wreath dimensions? If the eagle is cast, then so is the wreath and I'd expect some sort of difference with an original. No good giving eagle dimensions as there is too much hand finishing on the eagle's of these badges imo (if you can get an accurate thickness of the eagle at any point that might help though). I'd expect wreath dimensions to be a minimum of about 53.1 x 42.7 mm (my two examples are 53.1 x 43.1 and 53.5 x 42.7 mm).

Re the maker mark, sometimes these were really sharp/crisp, other times they were a bit "blurry". Ever seen a REALLY crisp Juncker marking on a LW Flak Badge? I've seen cast Juncker maker marks before and they looked worse than this.

Are the notches in the wreath above the hinge in line with the inner edges of the two outer hinge segments?

Beveling on the swas, or the absence thereof, is neither here nor there for me as this is where hand finishing comes into it. The fact that there appear to be nice crisp file marks is a good sign imo - the same with the finishing on the wreath. I realise a really good casting will also pick up these markings but they normally aren't "crisp".

One thing I do have a concern with is visible in the shot of the hinge with the pin open - there appears to be no "blued" finish remaining on the underside of the central hinge segment. Normally even heavily worn badges will retain the finish in this area.

Without examining it, I'm certainly not convinced it's a repro. I'll continue to follow the discussion with interest.

Regards
Mike K

[Tim B.]

Andy,

I have seen a few of these near mint Juncker's for sale that seem to have less crispness to the maker's mark and less angle on the swastika's left arm. I'm not sure, but perhaps these are later tombak pieces as the dies started to wear. Still, the die characteristics should be the same for the most part IMO.

Tim C. is usually pretty careful on his badges and has a very good eye for details; I know, as he has pointed a lot out to me on his pilot badges in the past. What was his opinion when he sold it to you?
Tim B.

[Tim Calvert]

Andy,

If you're not 100% happy with it, I'll have your $$ back with-in 24 hours.
Send the badge back at your convenience.

If it really does turn out to be a fake, then it sure fooled me. I'd really like to know the truth if they are getting that good.

Here's a shot of the eagle that I have.....John TW, how does it compare with your's?

[skip]

If this turns out to be a copy it´s time to sell up and get out. They are not this good yet surely?

Skip

[Luftm40]

Hi, yes I did buy this badge from Tim. No harm, no foul though Tim. If this badge is indeed fake: A) its nearly perfect and B) I'm sure it will be made right. Since I have this badge in hand at the moment, and we are all friends here...lets use this to get to the bottom of the mystery. PLease post close ups of your Juncker FJ badges. I'd be especially curious to see examples w/ air tight provenance of some kind. Mike, to answer your questions. The dimensions are identical to yours. My scale is out of batteries, or I would get a weight too. The finish is totally intact under the hinge (must be the pic), and the saw marks line up perfectly. I too, am less concerned w/ the shape of the swastika, as you can clearly see why, with a bit more hand finishing, the arms would be "textbook" Also, the flash makes the badge appear more shiny than it really is. The blackened finish actually has more of a matte tone, especially in the crevices. The mm is definitely mushy...but I have seen this before. I have also seen cast Juncker mm that looked much better than this. The catch was a bit of a concern, as it is rather sloppy for a Juncker IMO. Here are some pics from the archives of another Juncker FJ badge...one that I felt had the most provenance. It seems to match up favorably (hope John doesn't mind me posting them. John Hodgin's piece, acquired in the 1970s). Tis a mystery!!

[Luftm40]

Here are some more pics of the badge in question

[Luftm40]

still more

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

Here's the "story" (from e-mail correspondence) that goes with the badge I've posted some large (but blurry) scans of below. Believe it or not, that's up to you - I can't proove it. There are probably guys here who could confirm or refute the units/times/locations mentioned. This is a case where I chose to believe the story as the badge looked spot on and I didn't ask about it's history until AFTER I'd purchased it .....

QUOTE "(My wife's) father was in the B company 37th Tank Battalion of the 4th Armored Division 3rd Army Corp. Specificaly 126 Armored Ord Battl.. He was in from may of 41 till Oct.45. He participated in campaigns at Normandy, Northern France, Ardennes, Bastogne, Rhinelands and through out central Europe. He remembers sharing "mess" with General Patton as the hardest campaign though. The pin was "taken" in the Ardennes action. He doesn't remember if it was from a POW or a casualty though. His health and memory have been on the wane for the last few years and he has refused to talk of his experiences with much detail till recently. According to the book he was given by the 4th in Europe the paratoopers they engaged were led by Von Rundstedt. In this book there is a picture of the paratrooper POW's being marched away from the battle and you can see that almost all of their insignia and emblems are missing from their uniforms. It was really fascinating to get the story from him then to actually find a historical point of reference to support his memories. We have found many things in his hidden goodies drawers that leave us both wishing he would have shared more of his past while he more cognisant. Pictures of battle fields token coins from different places he was in. Pictures of a Jewish death camp that his group liberated, books and letters from the army. He even has a letter of commendation from Patton for all the units involved in the relief of Bastogne. To have gone through all of this then return home and spend 30 years as a city policeman here in Baltimore and yet share so few recollections such a pity." ENDQUOTE

Although the maker mark is quite blurry (due to the scan), the clarity and form is on par with Andy's example. Having read Andy's answers so my questions, I personally don't have a problem with badge - enjoy it Andy!

Regards
Mike K

http://members.iinet.net.au/~datumge...-obv-X500a.jpg
http://members.iinet.net.au/~datumge...-rev-X500a.jpg

PS: a question I've always meant to ask - for those of you who have WORN Para Badges, could you check the edges for green paint! Both of my worn "standard pattern" Juncker examples have different shades of green paint on the edges!!