PO badge mm GWL what do you think

[germanmedals]

Hello guys
This Pilot-Observer is being offered to me for exchange so I decided to get it checked. It is marked GWL.
What do you think?

If it is OK i will exchange it and then it goes on estand as you all know that I'm trying to get money for RK
Thanks for all your help

[mmiller]

Lovely. Textbook. And look at the 'fingerprint swirl' in the reverse eagle. The dimpled rivets. The break at the 8 o'clock position of the mm circle. All perfect. Go for it.

Regards,
Mark

[germanmedals]

Thanks Mark!

I will try and make a deal.

If somebody is interested in buying it, send me a private message.
Thanks

[Thomas Durante]

I agree, a nice looking original, with slightly worn hightlights on the eagle.

Tom

[martin hall]

Po/ badge

AS the guys said great badge, hope you get the deal .

[Larry Lipps]

Guys, at the risk of being a wet blanket, I have a couple of questions. While I agree that it appears to be an original GWL badge. I question whether or not it began life as a PO. PO badge eagles are silver plated. This one appears to have the standard pilot's badge finish. The finish on the wreath appears too uniform for all the finish to have worn off the eagle while remaining constant on the wreath. Maybe it's just the photos, but I need more convincing prior to giving it a thumbs up. A silver eagle for comparison:

[juvatwad]

I don't know if it's a refinished pilot, but it certainly has not retained the typical nice GWL P/O finish.

[mmiller]

I don't know if it's a refinished pilot, but it certainly has not retained the typical nice GWL P/O finish.

That is my gut feeling too. I wonder if there is some type of chemical solvent/cleaner that could have taken all the frosting and factory 'sparkle' off the badge? Give me a strong chemical stripper and a hard bristle tooth brush and watch what happens to the frosting!!!

As thin (microns) as the swirls are in the rear 'thumbprint', I think that any attempt at refinishing the badge would have dulled those details immediately.

On the reverse eagle's wings, I see traces of silver or white where the wreath overlaps the wings, which may be old traces of frosting which were not abraded by a cleaning process. Who knows, ignorant people (no disrespect meant to coin collectors and antique dealers) may polish these things thinking that the frosting is not supposed to be there, as if it is [bad] oxydization, and the whole eagle should be shiny. Not everyone knows how to treat these badges.

And it's just a theory.

I have no answer??

Mark

REVERSE OF ORIGINAL BADGE:



OBVERSE OF ORIGINAL BADGE W/ COLOR CORRECTION:


ORIGINAL BADGE W/OUT COLOR CORRECTION:

[Gary B]

Dear Mark,

No coin collector worth his salt or with ANY knowledge of the hobby would polish a coin. (I did not take offense to this but as a coin collector I had to make that statement )

As an aside the P/O in question might not have been polished but could have been dipped, a method which is practiced by certain medal (and coin)dealers/collectors. When oxide is removed thru dipping a small microscopic portion of the metal is removed as well - remember that oxidation is a combination of O2 and the metal at a molecular level. After a number of treatments the micro thin "layer" that gave the badge its sheen is gone, leaving the medal/coin with a dull and lifeless appearance.

Still a nice GWL.

Gary B

[mmiller]

No coin collector worth his salt or with ANY knowledge of the hobby would polish a coin. (I did not take offense to this but as a coin collector I had to make that statement )
Gary B

HA! With correct emphasis added to the 'ANY'. Precisely!

Dear Mark,

".....As an aside the P/O in question might not have been polished but could have been dipped...... After a number of treatments the micro thin "layer" that gave the badge its sheen is gone, leaving the medal/coin with a dull and lifeless appearance.

Still a nice GWL.

Gary B

You are absolutely correct about the dipping. (I gently use it myself, but only with sudsy ammonia. Great for cleaning off finger grease and nicoteine.) I still think the badge had some form of abrasion-process used. Those white remnants of frosting on the rear wings are in a place (protected by the wreath above) where the 'mechanical process' could not reach. To me, that is indicative of a polishing process, to some degree.

Ready for the show?

Mark

[George L]

Looks a good PO to me, albeit cleaned.

Mark, will that sudsy ammonia strip off the weak blue finish on pilot's badges?

[mmiller]

Looks a good PO to me, albeit cleaned.

Mark, will that sudsy ammonia strip off the weak blue finish on pilot's badges?

Hello George,

I have never experienced that phenomenon. It is slow acting and has no solvents. But I hear you. The bluing on an early J1 Pilot Badge is pretty delicate stuff! I generally rinse the badge (that I am about to clean) in cold water, first. That (indirectly) helps to dilute the sudsy ammonia, and retard the cleaning process. Just submerse the badge for 5 -10 seconds. Rinse, anytime you want to neutralize the process. Maybe repeat the process, as many times as the badge needs. You can use a soft bristle tooth brush, or even just light pressure from your finger tips. Stop! Don't go too far with it! Don't get too aggressive with it. I must warn you, that you will take off aging patina, if you start rubbing too long and too hard. You wouldn't want to do that with a CEJ Silver marked Spanish Cross, for instance. But you could certainly just clean a wreath and leave the eagle untouched. Submerse for a few seconds, remove from solution and work wreath with fingertips. Go small steps at a time and rinse. Let it sit for 30 minutes and look at it with a fresh 'head'. You can repeat the process, or admire and leave it alone.

This cleaning discussion with get some collectors (the purists!) blood pressure rising, so I better shut up!

Mark

[Gary B]

George,

Mark is right in that you need to start off very slow with the sudsy ammonia until you get used to it. better to have to do the steps over and over to get the desired results as opposed to washing 60 years of patina away...you might want to use a "cheaper" badge to practice with.

Mark,

I am ready for the show and can hardly wait till this 3 day work week goes by! A friend, MAtt (my son) and I will have a single table there, drop by!

See you there....but please DON'T buy up all of the nice Luftwaffe badges...leave some for other people, like me.

Gary B

[germanmedals]

The discussion I see is going very well. Here are some photos at natural light. I was told that the badge wasnt cleaned, in the back there are actual traces of frosting. I wait for reply. I already got some interesants writing me on private message. If somebody else is interested in buying it write.

[juvatwad]

I see an authentic GWL, but the finish really is a shame. Personally, the finish on GWL badges is the thing I look for. Maybe this is an opportunity for someone to pick one up relatively cheap.