Droop Tail Eagle Spanish Cross

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

If I can make a suggestion, lets keep the posts to having specific reasons why you DO or DO NOT like about it, rather than posts like "IMO a copy". This will keep the thread shorter and much more constructive rather than having 7 pages of fluff.

Thanks guys.

Tom

[Gary B]

Hi,

Although I am not an expert on these awards, there are several areas I would focus my attention on regarding this piece:

1) Pin assembly
2) The Eagles
3) The sword hilts

The "cross itself" seems to be of nice quality but the eagles, as have been mentioned many times before, just dont seem to be of the quality I would expect to see on this award. The swept tail eagles on SCs are finely detailed and almost like small pieces of jewelry attached to the cross. If wartime droop tail eagles were made (for whatever reason) I would expect the same high quality standards to be used.

The pin looks more like a 57 example then something we are familiar with as wartime production.

Does someone have some examples of sword hilts to discuss this area?

Gary B

[Craig Gottlieb]

I agree - we should agree to keep our posts "substantive" (not to in any way criticize my friend and colleague Don or anyone else with a shorter post of agreement). I enourage the moderators to delete those which do not contain the specifics of why-and-why-not (including this post, which can be deleted). I'd love to make this the conclusive thread on the subject, for researchers who are interested.

[Craig Gottlieb]

And my read of the thread so far is encouraging! Here is a summary of arguments so far, and my view on them:

1) Reverse hardware is reminiscant of 57 type hardware - I agree, and it's objectively true, and highly problematic for this badge type.

2) Swastika and bird feathers are "crude." - I agree, but in light of other mis-formed swastikas and crude feather-work on other period medals in our medals lexicon, I don't find this to be problematic.

3) Droop-tail too early for this badge: It is certainly correct, but I also see on a regular basis, droop-tail eagles on mid-period uniforms, award documents, and other things (but admittedly, no medals I can think of).

4) S&L connection - definitely problematic for this badge type. It may be unfair to imply "guilt buy association" but it's definitely a problem for thee badges.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Just another thought: does anyone have a period S&L catalog that shows that they sold the SC and if so, how does it compare this one presented here?

Tom

[Craig Gottlieb]

Great question. General comment about it: while a picture of the "droop tail" eagle in a catalog would be a real discovery suggesting these were originally made (not all, but some), finding the "regular" eagle in the catalog would not preclude the droop-tail from still being good. My point: catalogs are not always reliable, as anyone who collects daggers knows. The Eickhorn catalog is notorious for having things in it that they never made (I'm thinking of the Diplomat dagger, which is illustrated, but not found in collections). Just a thought. Anyway, back to the subject. I have an assmann catalog, but no S&L.

[mmiller]

Tom, Craig, All,

(Tom - I will write the way I normally do, and I hope it doesn't come off as personal. Just treating this topic the way I would any other on the Forum. I don't think a little 'IMHO' ever hurts!)

I'm not sure we can ever be certain about some of this stuff. If no period ID is available, where can one go? Probably about where we are right now, taking the logical (and illogical) arguments as far as we can. Lots of things are speculative, like the round-wreathed Pilot Badges. (No period photos, catalogues, or provinence exists.)

With the badge shown, I concur with most of the 'cons' already presented. With any piece, I can accept maybe one deviation from the 'norm', but 2, 3, or 4 questions regarding authenticity become over-shadowing, IMHO.

When you buy a 'seldom seen' or 'one of a kind' piece, you gotta know the outcome right upfront. If priced accordingly, and offered for 'what it is', you will either have a real treasure on your hands (down the road), or will be stuck with a fishing lure. Much need be assessed in making such a (purchase) decision. Personally, I've found myself migrating to the conservative side, only to survive. When the prices were lower and the $ was stronger, I gambled a bit more.

I can't present any additional info either pro or con. Hope this 'opine' didn't digress too far from the topic. I guess I 'strayed' into ownership vs. cost vs. variations.

Regards,
Mark

[münster]

I would not pick one up unless directly from private or houseclearance and even then it would have to be in a grouping. On this one the hardware is post war to me. I do not like the sword grips in particular. The pebbling also gives me the willies. I would be interested to see any of these that have been privately aquired and not from collections, does anyone have one?

Also what Tom said I noticed and went back over the observations, the patina on the edges of the arms, looks well to cordinated. There is an original kuban Shield where artificial patina look was added but this is not as well executed as that, imo
Best
Dion

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Mark, your post is perfect. I am all for opinions, I just ask that you back them up with some thoughts as to how you reached your opinion instead of just the typical one line answer "IMO a fake". Makes for a much better and constructive thread.

Thanks guys, looking forward to more thoughts.

Tom

[mmiller]

Hi guys,

Thanks guys, looking forward to more thoughts.

Tom

Hi Tom,

I didn't want to stir up your 'wrath', and have you drag out the bullwhip accross my back!

Mark

[Gary B]

Hi,

Most of the discussion/attention on this type has focused on the eagle tail; I still think careful comparison/examination of the sword grip/hilt might reveal some opinions.

I have an S&L 50th Anniversary catalog at home I will try to remember to check.

Gary B

[Leroy]

Regarding the "droop-tail eagle" being too early for this badge, please look at the top of the cases (boxes) for the "Next-of Kin" Spanish Cross awards. The cross illustration routinely printed there is of a version with the droop-tail eagle.

It was well known in advance that this award was "coming", so I wonder if some companies geared up for it before the LW adopted the new style eagle.

Leroy

[mmiller]

Regarding the "droop-tail eagle" being too early for this badge, please look at the top of the cases (boxes) for the "Next-of Kin" Spanish Cross awards. The cross illustration routinely printed there is of a version with the droop-tail eagle.
Leroy

If I remember correctly, the motiff is droop-tail, but the actual eagle's on the award are not.

Mark

[Leroy]

Mark, you are correct.

[Craig Gottlieb]

Very interesting point, about the box art. So we at least know, that the droop-tail eagle was used in SOME form with respect to this award, even if only on the box of the Next of Kin award. It does also seem logical that companies might have "ramped up" in advance of distribution, which may explain the use of the droop-tail-eagle on an actual cross (or on the box, which we know is good).