Andy...It is a secondary point, but I don't believe the eagle's details are significantly different.
Originally posted by Andy Hopkins
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Visit my Badge Collection: http://lbmilitaria.homestead.com/home.html -
It's too bad that this thread got derailed; authenticity was never in my mind a question. This is probably a topic for another thread but there (to quote a friend) "textbook junkie" attitudes which are limiting and lead to people passing up great opportunities (in the example here, you have period photos, what else could you want?).
Let me try to recalibrate the thread; what we have there is an unknown maker with an Assmann eagle (I think), and a unique wreath. Andy what are your thoughts here, besides "don't-call-an-Assmann"
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Seba, I think your badge is most likely just fine, at least nothing cries "fake"...I'm just not sure where the whole Assmann thing came from. Going thru these mental gymnastics to make this badge into an Assmann is just clouding the issue. The wreath and construction are definitely different than an Assmann. The eagle may be alike or different, but I think it would take having both badges in hand to say for sure. Even slightly different die characteristics on the eagle mean at least different dies....you might as well call this badge a Juncker, or Osang given all of these differences. JMME badges use parts identical to Juncker, and likely struck from the same dies...but they are not Juncker badges, they are JMMEs. Like you said, I think it would be better to say this is an unmarked badge, possibly with an eagle like an Assmann, rather than to call it an Assmann. I just would hate to see some "new" category of Assmann badge created here without good evidence. I think I'll bow out of this one now and slither back to the helmet forum
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No need to bow out my good manOriginally posted by Andy HopkinsSeba, I think your badge is most likely just fine, at least nothing cries "fake"...I'm just not sure where the whole Assmann thing came from. Going thru these mental gymnastics to make this badge into an Assmann is just clouding the issue. The wreath and construction are definitely different than an Assmann. The eagle may be alike or different, but I think it would take having both badges in hand to say for sure. Even slightly different die characteristics on the eagle mean at least different dies....you might as well call this badge a Juncker, or Osang given all of these differences. JMME badges use parts identical to Juncker, and likely struck from the same dies...but they are not Juncker badges, they are JMMEs. Like you said, I think it would be better to say this is an unmarked badge, possibly with an eagle like an Assmann, rather than to call it an Assmann. I just would hate to see some "new" category of Assmann badge created here without good evidence. I think I'll bow out of this one now and slither back to the helmet forum
I was wondering why we would think it was a fake (?). I think with photo evidence we have to assume authenticiy, and I find it hard to believe we are even talking about that. It's a little frustrating.Comment
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Seba,
I'm just as excited to learn about this badge as you. Sorry to have interjected something that would have caused even the slightest idea that your badge wasn't an authentic piece, or anything that could be misleading in that direction. This was never even a thought in my mind. I am still a novice to the para badges and their different patterns, etc. It was just interesting to me to see the slight differences in the two badge's eagles. Sorry to have derailed or slowed down the progress of this thread. Looking forward to a good education here. Very interesting.
Robert
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Ok, let me try to revive this a bit, answering some points in a small summary.
Robert, in an earlier post you say that the talons are a little different, can you please expand on this? They look the same to me, may be you or someone else can provide a photograph to make your point? Also, what exactly in the feathers do you see as different? Please be very specific, as you see something that I do not, I agree with Frank and Lorenzo that the eagles are identical.Can you explain to me in detail what is “Assmann typical” to you? I just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing. Please be specific.I'm in full agreement with Andy in that we need to be certain that the pin assembly and rivets are Assmann typical.
Eric, yes, the hinge is a little different – of course, as Frank mentioned, this is a different wreath. That is the point of this thread!
About whether or not to call it an “Assmann” variation, let me say this - what do we know for sure about the badge? That it has an assmann eagle. Did the firm of Assmann produce this badge? At the very least, they made the eagle, which is 50% of the badge. May they subcontracted the work? Yes. May be someone else manufactured it? Of course. But in absence of anything else I suggest we follow the theory that it is an Assmann variation (at this point, a theory that makes sense).Comment
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I'll try my best...
The talons on your badge seem to extend further into the swastika. Also they look more perpendicular to the swastika, rather than at an angle as the talons are on my badge. The talons on Lorenzos badge seem the same as mine. Another point that seems obvious to me is at the highest set of feathers on the wing. There are three feathers making up this 'set'. The third feather down seems to have a double-hump at the furthest point (or the end) of the feather on your badge. Notice on my badge the third feather in this 'set' has a single hump at the end. To me these points are very minor but, still they are different. As to Assmann 'typical' I was referring to 'textbook' features that so often accompany early Assmann flight qualification badges, i.e., hinge, rivets, pin and catch. I'm just not used to seeing these small hammered rivets on an early Assmann-made badge, but rather the all-familiar 'spun' rivets. To sum things up, I would think at this point that your badge might possibly be a badge from an 'unknown' maker who used an Assmann eagle, an eagle that was perhaps a different pattern than the one seen on my badge. Like everyone else, I'm interested in learning a little more about this interesting piece. One certainly cannot argue with the period photos you provided us. They do reveal an 'egg-shaped' wreath alright. Hope this has been a help.
Robert
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Originally posted by robert pierceI'll try my best...
The talons on your badge seem to extend further into the swastika. Also they look more perpendicular to the swastika, rather than at an angle as the talons are on my badge. The talons on Lorenzos badge seem the same as mine. Another point that seems obvious to me is at the highest set of feathers on the wing. There are three feathers making up this 'set'. The third feather down seems to have a double-hump at the furthest point (or the end) of the feather on your badge. Notice on my badge the third feather in this 'set' has a single hump at the end. To me these points are very minor but, still they are different. As to Assmann 'typical' I was referring to 'textbook' features that so often accompany early Assmann flight qualification badges, i.e., hinge, rivets, pin and catch. I'm just not used to seeing these small hammered rivets on an early Assmann-made badge, but rather the all-familiar 'spun' rivets. To sum things up, I would think at this point that your badge might possibly be a badge from an 'unknown' maker who used an Assmann eagle, an eagle that was perhaps a different pattern than the one seen on my badge. Like everyone else, I'm interested in learning a little more about this interesting piece. One certainly cannot argue with the period photos you provided us. They do reveal an 'egg-shaped' wreath alright. Hope this has been a help.
Robert
Thank you for the reply. Since I have my sincere doubts about these differences, let's do this - can you post a close up of the areas you are speaking about? I will do the same. The differences may just be due to the photography. I think that the top set of feathers looks exactly the same, but I would love to look further.Comment
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I would also like to see close-ups of the differences being cited here as I don't see them. I see FAR MORE similarities than I do differences. We should also point out that we are comparing different pictures with different camera and lighting angles. As a final point, I am not sure why Robert's Assmann is being used as "textbook". It appears that the swaz in bent and is not textbook for an Assmann. Perhaps other areas of his badge have also been damaged and should not be used as a basis for comparison.Visit my Badge Collection: http://lbmilitaria.homestead.com/home.htmlComment
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Here are a couple for comparison:
The third feather down on the top 'set' of feathers has a smooth radius ending (I'm not familiar enough with my photo software to draw an arrow to help indicate):
Robert
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...and here are the talons which seem to extend down onto the swastika less than yours:
It looks from the closeup that the left arm of the swastika took a good bump bending it a little.
Robert
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I like the Seba badge..
I too think it's a very early bird..and Assmann..
I'm maybe one of the few that still thinks that big firms had more than one die to produce these badges...maybe one constantly and another when needed or whatever..
Can we imagine what happened after war..?
Most evidence is thrown away,melted,crushed etc.
Important had been the stuff that was left by the factories like prototypes,leftovers etc..
In the early days people where lucky to find such stuff like parts of badges,unfinished wreaths etc.
Maybe dies where made,used a few times,result not that good,new die...
The few badges it made just made their way to the recipient.(that were no collectors...
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Also,some people say a extra die was expensive etc...what's the price of a tank or a plane,mr moustache didn't care about money at that moment ??
We just don't have the insight of the period of time ,we only work with what's left...and unfortunately it's not much...
Also,process was they were still improving the badges,hinges,catches,rivets...
Minor differences can always be found on these..,can be one of a very small serie...
We always take a badge of which the majority is very sure and then compare all badges to that very badge...it's not always the way IMO
Jos.Comment
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How can anybody not like it? He's got a picture of the guy wearing it, for Chrissakes!
GeorgeComment
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That's what I've been trying to say. Everyone should be comparing their badges to this oneOriginally posted by George StimsonHow can anybody not like it? He's got a picture of the guy wearing it, for Chrissakes! .
Anyway, here we go, here are the feathers. I still don't see it.Comment
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DAMN!!!
As you are all lallygagging and I am working with the pictures...I just got NAILED by a virus called "backdoor...something-or-other!!" . Oh well...back to business...
Several very minute discrepancies have been noted between Robert's badge and Seba's badge. I have used an Assmann badge that I received from Detlev that I think is a better example for comparison. See the following posts for comparisons of certain areas. I see MANY, MANY MORE consistencies between Seba's ( and MY) para to the "textbook" example than I see differences.
First off: My badge is NOT CAST. It is from an original die. If not from an Assmann die...then somebody went to TREMENDOUS lengths to duplicate the detail. I don't think so. I believe that Seba's badge is an Assmann and the proof is in the details. Look closely at the following pictures and pay close attention to the design charateristics while ALLOWING for camera, lighting, wear and finishing differences. The badges are identical IMO.
First: Detlev's example:Last edited by Lorenzo Brown; 08-13-2003, 08:17 PM.Visit my Badge Collection: http://lbmilitaria.homestead.com/home.htmlComment
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