JUNCKER P/Os - PRE FIRE GILT?

[mmiller]

Are we to assume that Juncker always had the fire gilting process? Maybe we take it for granted.... maybe we never really thought about it.

The earliest Luftwaffe Badge, the First Model Combined Aircrew Badge, was NOT gilted, even though a P/O, per se. No fire gilting yet. Now we do have specimens, J1 P/Os, that were marked C.E.JUNCKER, that were fire gilted. Several years back, I stumbled across a CEJ marked J1 P/O. It did not have a fire gilt finish. In fact, the gilting was rather 'flat'. That finish, combined with a repaired hinge and some seriously tapped down rivets, had the sceptics commenting on a refinished Pilot Badge.

The years have passed. And maybe some additional evidence is coming into play. I will post a J1 P/O Screwback next to the J1 CEJ. The Screwback does not have fire gilting either. Infact, the finish on that badge is a bit darker, which may be attributed to surface dirt and toning. Never-the-less, no fire gilt.

Two things: 1) the CEJ may in fact not be an 'upgraded' Pilot badge, and, 2) very early J1s may exist without firegilting.

Comments?

Regards,
Mark

PRE FIREGILT J1 P/O BADGES





FIREGILT J1

[George L]

That J1 gilted badge is super! The screwback PO from the front looks more like a straight PB from the colors.

[mmiller]

Hi George,

Yes, it does. A tough one to accurately capture the colors. Here is another shot. The finish in the eagle is worn on the highlights, and the tombak is showing through.

Regards,
Mark

[Jos L C]

the CEJ might have had several cleaning treatments over the years, lost all it's surface fire gilt leaving a flat gold-ish finish .. ?!

I think early schwerin badges have a similar tone when the fire gilt is gone and still having all their finish ..

Jos.

[Marc Garlasco]

Mine for comparisson:

[mmiller]

Marc, (with a C)

Your Badge is a close match (and a very nice one at that) to my Firegilt C.E.JUNCKER J1.

Jos,

I think you are correct about the CEJ being cleaned, over the years. But I would have thought that there might still be some Firegilting in the recesses? The Screwback is still abit of a mystery. The reverse clearly shows the badge to be a P/O. Quite possible that the same cleaning explanation applies to the obverse finish.

Regards,
Mark

[Marc Garlasco]

You should see the case!

[Jos L C]

Jos,

I think you are correct about the CEJ being cleaned, over the years. But I would have thought that there might still be some Firegilting in the recesses?
Regards,
Mark

It all depends how they're treated IMO..
Not all badges come straight outoff the woodworks and have been in many hands and might have been treated the wrong way.., chemicals, vinegar, toothbrush with cleaning powder etc..
My grandfather used to brush his false teeth with VIM, needles to say his teeth lost all their fire gilting..., no twinkle when he smiled..

Jos.

[mmiller]

My grandfather used to brush his false teeth with VIM,
Jos.

[Scott C.]

No fire-gilt here, just a gold-colored metal wreath like some shown above. Perhaps the fire-gilding was an extra cost option?

[norwest]

The reverse clearly shows the badge to be a P/O.

I assume you are referring to the fact that the original finish is easier to see on the back. There is no way to tell them apart by their form, is there?

--Kevin

[mmiller]

They appear identical, to me. I'm pretty sure that the CEJ is nickel-silver, and the Juncker is Tombak. That does correspond with a pair of Pilot Badges I have; the CEJ is nickel-silver and the Juncker is Tombak.

I have always wondered if there is a hard-and-fast rule, to that effect. We'd need more specimans of both, to draw a conclusion.

Regards,
Mark