My B & N L Flak Badge for Marc,

[savarese29]

...

[savarese29]

Two Related Threads

...

[Don D.]

Definately different than Frank's badge. I remember that sales thread and believe thier was some question about the badge then.

[PODO01]

****

Hello,

Based On The Threads Posted, Could B&nl Shared Components From Another Company? In The Other Thread We See All Characteristics Of A B&nl Only Different Eagle.

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

Good question for Marc. Marc, is this the badge you wanted to look at before it was sold a month or so ago? What are your thoughts on it? I really like the finish on this one and the way the catch is sunken down into the reverse is texbook B&NL IMO.

Tom

[savarese29]

To note

...

[Marc Garlasco]

Gents,
This badge is 100% fake. I will give you a detailed analysis. Please give me some time as I am at work. I appologize for my terse comments yesterday. I was honestly hurt when told that just because I am writing some book I know what I am talking about. I have handled HUNDREDS of Flaks and in all I have handled FOUR B&NL - thus showing you the absolute rarity. Now I was childish and I am sorry, but I put a lot of work into this and consider myself to be fairly knowledgeble.

This may take a while, so bear with me as I put it together.
Marc

[Marc Garlasco]

I will begin with period evidence of a real B&NL badge. Here it is on a Flak soldier. The photo is so crystal clear you can make out the roundel, as well as the eagle's head. This eagle is ONLY found on B&NL flaks. We can tell it is not one of the other 10 makers as well, and so we have only one possibility.

[Marc Garlasco]

Just so we can see what we are comparing, here is the CLAW FAKE with the B&NL marking. Even Skip now agrees it is fake. Note I have these with bad Juncker, Assmann, and Wiedmann markings. Pay special attention to the hinge. They did a nice job with the catch - almost got you Durante on that one! But they totally blew the hinge and unique B&NL attachment pins for the eagle. Am I being anal? You need to be in this hobby:

[Marc Garlasco]

Here is the hinge for your badge. The fakers could not manage the correct hinge which is a thin barrel hinge. Also, they can't manage the pin setup so they muck it up with a lot of solder. Now lets play devils advocate and say your badge is a Frankenstein sent to another factory to be repaired - Wiedmann in this instance since your eagle is a Wiedmann copy. Too many problems there:

Wiedmann did not use that hinge on Flaks, and
1) The wreath is identical to a known fake - the claw fake. Compare the two. They are identical.
2) The wreath on your badge and the claw fake do not have the B&NL die flaws.

[Marc Garlasco]

Absolutely BEST case scenario is your badge is the aforementioned Frankenstein. I don't think so, though an in-hand assessment as I asked to do when the badge waqs sold would help determine that conclusively. The eagle is clearly not correct. That your badge and eagle are both finished in the same way does not help it. I would expect to see contrasting finish. I have seen a number of Frankensteins and that is usually what you see. But lets say Wiedmann had in fact refinished it after they fixed it. Possible. It does not answer some of the perplexing issues of this badge, and it means your don't have a true B&NL, but it is possible. At any rate, here is what a B&NL eagle looks like (and I have more on file, but this one suffices, and we do have the photo evidence):

[savarese29]

I do not buy it!

Marc,

Now let me qualify my statement....."I am not saying this is real or fake"

However, just because you post a blurry picture and make an "Assumption" (because that is what it is) that this "has to be" a B&NL flak and that the one posted is "100% fake" based on that is unfounded and not conclusive.

You stated that this is the "ONLY" eagle found on B&NL flaks. Once again, you will have to prove this profound statement...???

Additionally, ever example of a B&NL flak that I have been able to find to include Frank's (which has become the standard) has a round hole cutout at the base. The picture you show does not appear to have a round hole cut out....it looks to be cutout to shape.

Lastly, I am not saying that the round claw is good or bad.....but, once again you are deeming it a fake....based on what??? becasue you have seen 1 or 2 that do not match. If this is sooooo RARE how can we make any assumptions. I will say after reading SKIP's second thread on the B&NL "Claw" I was not 100% (note I said 100%) convinced it was "FAKE". Who would go to such great efforts to replicate the maker's mark so exactly. And the answer for money will not float as because suppsoedly this is VERY RARE as proclaimed by you and I have not seen but a few on the market.....so, where are all of these FAKE badges and why are the few deemed fake so different? Heck, if I am making fakes of the most rare badge there is I would have surely circulated a few more to make the $$$$$. Secondly, has anyone fathomed how much money it takes to create a cast so exacting. This is not an easy process! I will make this BOLD statement....whoever, he has not made a profit yet and wasted alot of time and money to create a few fakes.

[Marc Garlasco]

Now compare the hinge of Frank's. Look to the two depressions where the pins go in. The wreath is built with two holes in it so the eagle can be inserted and soldered. We don't see that in yours at all. An attempt is made on the claw fake, but again they blew it. I think yours is just a claw fake wreath that was over soldered to cover up for the problematic attachment system. It could also be the case this is a Frankenstein and Wiedmann could not attach their bird the same way and had to make due.

[Marc Garlasco]

Here is the same eagle as yours on a ball-hinge. Now that is an odd coincidence that we start seeing Wiedmann eagles on the wrong wreaths at the same time. Yes, it is meerly a coincidence. But the eye is not correct, the beak is elongated, and it is not what I want to see in a Wiedmann to be honest. It is however a perfect match for your eagle. And so I think we need to be wary:

[Marc Garlasco]

Now I will conclude my analysis.

1) The claw flak is a fake. Categorical statement of fact based on analysis and empiracle research. I have seen this bad eagle on many, many badges with bogus maker marks. We all know the fakers are constantly making new fakes, improving on old ones, and they do make a lot of money.

2) The hinge setup on your badge AT BEST indicates a Frankenstein. That in itself would mean you have a repaired B&NL, and thus only HALF of the badge. But if it had seen action, been fixed, and still worn proudly I would say it is better than a mint badge any day. But I do not think it is. The uniform finish is a huge problem, as is the eagle and lack of B&NL die flaws.

3) Your eagle is wrong. I have provided a period photo of a real B&NL. Look at it and decide yourself. Compare the two - I think it is astoundingly clear. Even the roundel in the photo is evident, and ONLY B&NL Flaks had a roundel like that.

4) As the claw is a fake and your wreath is a perfect match for it, well, I would say that should give us pause.

Finally, if you are happy with this badge, fine. None of us can prove a badge is fake. In the long run we can be told this is a rare variant until we all die of old age. Nor can you or anyone prove ANY badge is real. I can sit here all day with accepted badges and tell you I think they are fake, prove me wrong. Can not be done. In the end you have to look at the evidence and figure out for yourself if this badge is good or not, if you can live with it. That is all any of us can do.

I have presented my opinion as you requested. I think it is an informed opinion. I can not help it if you do not like it.

For me this badge would never be for my collection, but if you will provide me photos of it I promise it will go into my book.

Your friend,
Marc