800 Silver Juncker Pilot Badge

[R. Schmitt]

But why are the stamped three times 800?
One stamp would be enough....
Just a thought........

TWO would be sufficient if then, IMO

[Jeff V]

These badges are clearly NOT made by the Juncker company. Whether they were made by casting from an original Juncker, as Skip sugested, by a jeweler during the war for the pilots is up to the buyer to be comfortable with. best wishes,
jeff

[Albert]

What do those go for? I've recently been offered one but the price was exorbitant and I passed. Really would like to compare it with the going rate. Please pm me guys if it's not something you want to share publicly.
Thanks,
Albert

[Bob Hritz]

Jeff,

You have information that shows they were not made by Juncker? Juncker's first business was that of a jewelry manker and seller. The badge business began in WWI and became much larger than their jewelry business, during the Third Reich. However, the retail store was still selling jewelry throughout the Third Reich era (look for periodical newspaper ads at the Berlin Libraries). I assumed these were made later on, for private purchase or gifts. The J1 dies were clearly no longer being used for badge production. However, this is just speculation, but I have no evidence to show that someone other than Juncker made them. Total population of these seem to be pretty small.

Bob Hritz

[Jeff V]

Jeff,

You have information that shows they were not made by Juncker? Juncker's first business was that of a jewelry manker and seller. The badge business began in WWI and became much larger than their jewelry business, during the Third Reich. However, the retail store was still selling jewelry throughout the Third Reich era (look for periodical newspaper ads at the Berlin Libraries). I assumed these were made later on, for private purchase or gifts. The J1 dies were clearly no longer being used for badge production. However, this is just speculation, but I have no evidence to show that someone other than Juncker made them. Total population of these seem to be pretty small.

Bob Hritz

Bob, rather than me proving they were not made by Juncker, why don't you prove they were made by Juncker. Can you show the die characteristics of a tombak J1. The badge that Skip owned showed a uneven makermark, typical of a casting. The normal Juncker finishing of these badges are not present.
The hardware is not consistent with a J1 Juncker product. If Juncker did make this badge why did they use different rivets, hinge material, and catch material?
Since you say Juncker was a jeweler can you show evidence that Juncker marked any of their jewelry with THREE silver stamps. Did they typically hit the mark in with a four pound mallet, deforming the piece. I don't see any evidence of this type of workmanship in the silver army para.
I just don't see anything on these badges to make me believe that Juncker made them. Sorry.
If one wants to believe they were cast by a jeweler during the war for the pilot that is fine with me. No way to prove or disprove that. I would not want one in my collection but that is just my opinion. best wishes,
jeff

[Matthew]

juncker company

Juncker's first business was never any jewellery, the company (at least officially) started in 1851 according to german business registries as a "gurtler" then later as "gurtler und bronceure" operating out of Ritterstrasse 49. Whats really interesting is the fact that until after they moved to stallschreiberstrasse 12 in 1852 the company was officially registered inder the name C.E.JUNKER and some sources list them as such until 1866 when they changed to JUNCKER.A year or two could be a coincidence but 15 yrs is a bit of a stretch...so maybe Junker after all.

Another interesting fact is that going through phone books rather than business books they were listed since 1847(!) full 4 years before they emerged as official business. Guess old Max and Oscar were trying to test the market before going through the hoops of becoming fully legit
But that's another loooong topic having nothing to do with the badge mentioned in this thread.....

[andrewb]

Just curious, how do the measurements of the 800 badge compare with it's tombac counterpart?

Scott

Scott,
Here is a comparison of measurements done by skip.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=J1+800

AB.

Jeff,
The link above will compare the obverse 800 with a tombac. Please tell me where you see the differrence.

I believe that the eagle was stamped 800 because it is a SEPERATE piece. It is then riveted to the wreath, another seperate piece, also silver therefore stamped 800. Why is that so unbelieveable? My mother has an old broach in gold, 2 piece rivet construction. Both pieces are stamped with the gold content. My girlfriend has a white gold necklace and pendant, a set from Bvlgari, both pieces stamped with the gold content. Why two 800 stamps on the wreath?? I don't know but I would think that just one stamp either left or right would to some jewellers look uneven. So it was stamped on both sides. At that stage there was no eagle attached. Along comes the eagle with the 800 stamp, attaches to the wreath and now three 800 stamps.

There is the good possibility ( and this is what I believe) that it was made for Juncker by another jeweller. My understanding is that there are very few of these ever made. It may be that it was not practical for juncker to set up the making of so few badges so it was given to a jeweller on behalf of Juncker. Different rivets?? Of course, because of the metal. Silver is much softer therfore bigger rivets are needed. That is not my theory, thats from my local jeweller. Its not rocket science. The softer the mental the larger the fastener needs to be to hold it together. Smaller rivets would eventually work its way through the silver.

Hinge and catch? well correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a different hinge and/or catch on the P/O badge in diamonds to that of non diamonds? Again perhaps different jeweller, different metal equals different hinge/catch.

No one ever thought back then that these badges would be so scrutinized 60 years later.

It is definately not textbook but until someone can prove to me that it is NOT a wartime piece then that is my belief. If there is a chance then there is a possibility and I can't see any reason why the above would not have happened.

AB.

[WARLORD]

These pieces will always be of interest and debate. The main points which would much concern me are, the number of silver marks and the method of stamping.
The eagle would have been maked as a seperate piece. This is normal practice. The wreath would have been marked also. Two marks on the same piece in different locations is a situation that would have not happened. Added to this the normal period stamp for silver was a straight, .800, .835, .900 and even 1000. The style formed in a box is that employed after 1945. I must qualify this statement, by saying it was employed in the perriod, but very rarely.

The size of the rivits is another problem. To say silver is soft and therefore larger rivits is required is not correct. I have many pieces made in silver with very fine rivits.

Silver is employed because it is cheap, easy to cast, thus is the favorit of the faker. Silver gives the impression of value to many, thus giving more credance to the originality of the piece to some collectors.

Finally, the makers mark being cast with the badge is another warning note. The process would have been to have made a mould. The two pieces would have ben cast. However more than one piece would be cast. The normal would be in the region of 12 pieces, from these the badges would have been assembled. When finniahed the makers mark would have been applied along with the silver mark.

[andrewb]

Warlord, you say that its incorrect to say that silver being soft requires larger rivets and that you have many pieces in silver with very fine rivets.

1. Incorrect today, however back 60 years maybe a precaution. There is no doubt that silver is softer than tombac.

2. Your pieces in silver, how many fine rivets have they got? How big is the piece? The pilots badge is a large piece. There is only 2 places where rivets can be punched. To put 4 "normal" rivets, i.e. 2 on each side is not an option. Therefore I believe the jeweller erred on the side of caution and went for larger rivets. Remember that this would have been the very first and almost certainly the last batch made.

You say that the 800 Boxed style was used pre 45 but very rarely. So is the the Badge, infact to quote your words 12 pieces. That in my books is very rare.

Zinc is far more cheaper than silver and as easy to cast. There are many fakes cast in zinc.

I have trouble with the belief that if these badges are fake why did they go to so much trouble and work to make them look so real on the front and then put a non standard hinge/catch and then stamp it 3 times with a boxed 800???
I just can't see how a faker would go to the trouble to make it LOOK like a fake on the back.

This could go on for ever and has been discussed many times before. No doubt many more to come. I and no one else has made me believe that these pieces are pre 45 however, it is comforting to know that Bob Hritz, Detlev Niemann, Pieter Verbruggen, Tim Ball and Tim Calvert and more all believe in these badges but I'm sure 10 or 20 times more people disagree.

On a final note, this debate will rage on until some positive proof is brought forward and I for one would like to see this, which ever way it goes. Therefore I am perpared to donate my badge to anyone who is willing to have it tested to determine its authenticity once and for all. I am willing to take the challenge.

Regards,

AB.

[Scott C.]

Scott,
Here is a comparison of measurements done by skip.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=J1+800

Thanks Andrew.

Scott