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    #16
    Hi François,

    I don't like this badge either, but I realise it is difficult to be definitive from images, especially when some of the important features are out of focus/blurry (eg maker's mark, close-up details on the obverse of the wreath, etc). The detail on the obverse looks poor, probably cast, as does what I can see of the obverse of the wreath - NO detail to the acorns for instance. I also don't like the rivets - something does not look right. The finish on the reverse of the wreath does not look right either, unless it has been cleaned. Doea the wreath have a finish applied or is that the colour of the basemetal.

    If it is a repro, it is not necessarily a new one as good B&NL castings of both the eagle and the wreath have been around for a long time imo. The old sand cast repro I have is only 2% smaller than the original from memory but a lot lighter. Measurement comparison would be useful in this case I think.

    I do not recall seeing a zinc B&NL Pilot Badge either. That does not mean they do not exist though. However, I would expect the detail on a zinc badge to be as good as a neusilber/tombak badge, taking the poorer finish on a zinc badge into account which can sometimes mask detail. I have seen zinc GWL Pilot's badges and the "unmarked" type of zinc Pilot/PO Badge, for which the details are every bit as good as the earlier, higher quality examples. The same goes for Schwerin tombak vs zinc KM badges.

    Regards
    Mike K
    Regards
    Mike

    Evaluate the item, not the story and not the seller's reputation!

    If you PM/contact me without the courtesy of using your first name, please don't be offended if I politely ignore you!

    Comment

      #17
      2 cent opinion from the Fj side..

      Bonjour mon ami,

      "Can we expect the same the same details for badges from this maker during all the war?" If you disregard the metal used, I say, yes.

      I don't like the looks of the eagle, and agree with Richard that it looks cast.

      Ciao,
      JH
      Attached Files
      Esse Quam Videri

      Comment

        #18
        Para badge mark.
        Attached Files
        Esse Quam Videri

        Comment

          #19
          Hi Francois,

          I would be not so sure it is fake.


          I don't see big problems that can cover good points of this badge.



          wreath=> obverse B&NL TEXTBOOK with heavy patina. reverse the metal has the right colour of the mixed material used for these wreaths and heavy concave, hinge, cacth, hallmark are typical by this maker. the rivets can look strange for many people but I have seen again late pilots B&NL with these rivets ( I have in my files examples with these rivets).

          eagle=> I agree about soft details, but if we look zinc badges of B&NL (for example para and John's badge shows very well) we can see that details are soft as this eagle! and the colour is exactly the same! however, the details are B&NL. it has heavy patina.

          the smooth looking can be or for photos or for patina. I think eagle is in zinc. not sure if wreath is zinc, can be dirty tombak but for this only Francois can said directly by eyes.

          I am sure that if you will clean strong will like as many pilot badges in many collections ( but I would not do it)

          I think this badge can be an original badge.

          Ivan
          Last edited by IVAN; 04-11-2003, 03:27 PM.

          Ivan Bombardieri

          Comment

            #20
            Ivan,
            The badge is not mine and I never saw it except on pictures.

            For me the thread is very interesting as we are discussing about a pilot maker known only for tombak pilot badges (among other badges)- but that would be the first time, that we discuss about possible variations of B&NL pilot badges - don't get me wrong, I am not saying the badge presented is original (nor that it is a fake), I am just pointing out that we accepted variations for some makers of pilot badges but what about B&NL - no variation, same detaisl from the begining till the end, no sub-contracts........ I guess I want to learn more on B&NL .........
            Collection : http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=807895

            Comment

              #21
              I agree with Ivan...I would not be so quick to dismiss this badge as fake. There is a lot we as collectors don't know about WWII German badge production. In fact, we know almost nothing but that which we have gained from modern-day examination of presumed originals and fakes. Anyway, the badge looks right to me in many ways. The only "flaws" being the soft detail on the eagle and the slightly misstruck rivets. I would really like to see this one in person. The eagle may be zinc...or perhaps just a poorly struck tombak, or even some other material. Always keep in mind that these things were hand made. Also realize the process used to strike such heavy, 3D images involved heating the base material to a maleable state, then ramming a die down over it. Slight differences in die pressure, the temp and maleability of the base metal and type of material can and do make a difference. Look at some of your early, heavy quality badges under a loupe and you will probaly notice small flaws...little tiny folds and fissures caused by the die manufacuring process. Sometimes on pefectly original badges, these are quite pronounced. It just depends on the particular strike of that particular badge. Perhaps this badge was made later in the war w/ slightly inferior materials, worn dies, less skill or a combination of factors. On the rivets, again, these were hand made items. I have seen perfectly original badges w/ slightly mis struck rivets. Not a show stopper IMO. I'm not saying it is real, just that it warrants more consideration.

              Comment

                #22
                Help

                Evening gents.

                At the risk of showing my ignorance I would like to ask a question about the maker mark on the BNL pilot shown.

                I was under the impression that the '&' should be different, specifically the line of the lower circle protruding on the right. Should it not be higher up, closer to the middle?

                Apologies if I am way off the mark.

                Comment

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Andy Hopkins
                  There is a lot we as collectors don't know about WWII German badge production. In fact, we know almost nothing but that which we have gained from modern-day examination of presumed originals and fakes. ..... I'm not saying it is real, just that it warrants more consideration.

                  I agree 100% and will start a separate thread on B&NL pilot badges - I invite each owner to post pics.

                  François
                  Collection : http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=807895

                  Comment

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