IMME & Sohn Operator/Air Gunner Badge, good?

[Tim B.]

Hinge/Maker's Mark

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[IVAN]

Originally posted by tball
Ivan,

Here's some larger PICS of the Juncker RO/AG as requested, though I am not sure what you meant by--right side?

This is a thinner wreath and lighter badge (believe Detlev called it a type 3). I do not see the recessed areas in the wreath under the wings, unless I'm missing something.

Tim

......sorry for my english, I mean the badge at right .

the recessed areas in the wreath under the wings you can find in early types. yours has a thin wreath but is different from mine or CEJ types and you can see it in other points ( arm at 2 o'clock is more low ). I will put some photos of mine that shows this point.

About your badge I send to you a PM.

Ivan

[Tim B.]

This is interesting...

the recessed areas in the wreath under the wings you can find in early types. yours has a thin wreath but is different from mine or CEJ types and you can see it in other points ( arm at 2 o'clock is more low ). I will put some photos of mine that shows this point.

Ivan,

I didn't know if I should laugh, scratch my head in confusion, or take insult to your PM, but I noticed that you participated in two past threads (4/02 & 11/02) in which this very badge was displayed and no problems were noticed then by you or anybody else.

As far as the "arm at 2 o'clock being too low", are you referring to the right arm of the swastika? I assure you that it may appear that way in the PIC, as the badge is nicely vaulted and the camera may have distorted the edge of the PIC due to edge aberrations, but look again at the attached PIC below and you'll see the arm is the same level as other badges, including your own(?)

Wreath differences--?

I did force myself to go back and look over my badge in detail and compared it to yours above a little closer. I notice a difference in the leading talon (far left). Your's actually touches or extends down over the lower lightning bolt where mine is clearly above it. Comparing this to other early Juncker RO/AG badges in the earlier post by Ralph Heinz, I have to say all the other badges appear to have that talon where mine is and not hanging down like yours.

In that post, I referred to my badge possibly being one of the so called "type 3" badges that Detlev discussed as I didn't really see any gaps. However, after actually pulling out my badge again and comparing them to Lorenzo's great close-ups, I have to now say I must also have these recessed cuts in mine, (type 2?)though honestly they are not that deep IMO and from initial viewing from the front, almost transparent.

Looping the piece, however, mine does appear to resemble Lorenzo's where the cuts are concerned, though it was difficult to get a good angle on these spots with the loop due to the small area to work with. I would like to see more on this or a continuation to that thread in question.

I don't know what else to say here. The makers mark is correct, the details with the rivets, hinge, shear marks, etc... are correct for Juncker and IMO compare favorably with Frank H's, Lorenzo's, and Ralph H's badges and I thought even yours until I compared that talon in question. I also remember comparing it to Tim Calvert's "CEJ" badge in hand last year and both of us thought they were original Junckers and very close in die characteristics.

No real offense taken, but the other comments will be answered in a reply PM.

Other thoughts anybody?
Tim

[IVAN]

Re: This is interesting...

Originally posted by tball
Ivan,

I didn't know if I should laugh, scratch my head in confusion, or take insult to your PM, but I noticed that you participated in two past threads (4/02 & 11/02) in which this very badge was displayed and no problems were noticed then by you or anybody else.

As far as the "arm at 2 o'clock being too low", are you referring to the right arm of the swastika? I assure you that it may appear that way in the PIC, as the badge is nicely vaulted and the camera may have distorted the edge of the PIC due to edge aberrations, but look again at the attached PIC below and you'll see the arm is the same level as other badges, including your own(?)

Wreath differences--?

I did force myself to go back and look over my badge in detail and compared it to yours above a little closer. I notice a difference in the leading talon (far left). Your's actually touches or extends down over the lower lightning bolt where mine is clearly above it. Comparing this to other early Juncker RO/AG badges in the earlier post by Ralph Heinz, I have to say all the other badges appear to have that talon where mine is and not hanging down like yours.

In that post, I referred to my badge possibly being one of the so called "type 3" badges that Detlev discussed as I didn't really see any gaps. However, after actually pulling out my badge again and comparing them to Lorenzo's great close-ups, I have to now say I must also have these recessed cuts in mine, (type 2?)though honestly they are not that deep IMO and from initial viewing from the front, almost transparent.

Looping the piece, however, mine does appear to resemble Lorenzo's where the cuts are concerned, though it was difficult to get a good angle on these spots with the loop due to the small area to work with. I would like to see more on this or a continuation to that thread in question.

I don't know what else to say here. The makers mark is correct, the details with the rivets, hinge, shear marks, etc... are correct for Juncker and IMO compare favorably with Frank H's, Lorenzo's, and Ralph H's badges and I thought even yours until I compared that talon in question. I also remember comparing it to Tim Calvert's "CEJ" badge in hand last year and both of us thought they were original Junckers and very close in die characteristics.

No real offense taken, but the other comments will be answered in a reply PM.

Other thoughts anybody?
Tim

......No problem , be sure I haven't take it as an offense and I don't think what I wrote can be taken as an offense from you too!

Tim, In my thread I have only explain what's about recessed area you ask and I have said to you - I send a simple PM-!!!

as I said to you in my PM, I am sure there are no problems around your badge, I wanted only to say my thoughts not in particulary to your badge but in general, I didn't know there were 3 variants with early thin wreath and this is all what I have said. I am sure the arm of svastika and the other parts you speak are only a problem of angle pics as you said.

...you have perhaps read something in the lines that I have not written!

best regards

Ivan

[Tim B.]

Nice to hear

Good, lets move on.

As to the number of different die patterns, I am only using Detlev's opinions posted in the other "Ralph Heinz" thread as reference. How many actually exist-who really knows here? I will say this, that the cuts are very unnoticable on mine, but do resemble the close-ups that Lorenzo provided in that other thread. My .02 anyway.
Tim