Juncker Logo

[Frank Heukemes]

That´s NOT the fake I am talking about and I am not going to scan the Tucker book page. The fake I am talking about has the EXACT SAME logo as your Glider.

If the dealer doesn´t take that Glider back, just tell us who he is.
We have been discussing strictly the badge long enough.

Cheers, Frank

[Yuri D.]

I am in complete agreement with Frank. I would not want to have the glider badge in my collection for the following reasons:

The logo is definitely post-war
The rivets do not look like Juncker rivets
The metal is not the same type of Tombak that Juncker used
The block-hinge was used on zinc badges almost exclusively because of surface-area soddering requirements, and was almost never used on Tombak badges.

Yuri

[Brian S]

Thanks Frank. I don't want to discuss 'this badge'. But if someone were leaning over the window sill and peeking into this forum and read we aren't accepting Tucker's expensive new book as the bible, what do we tell them? Pointing to the new God's book and highlighting a page from that book and saying I don't like it is not an arguement that's easy to take to the bank.

Forget my badge, but being a software engineer and mathematician, I like 'the proof'. I think we owe that to all the collectors who belong to this site and we're asking them to accept the stated 'facts'. You could get a hundred guys to post their 'IMHO' but that's not proof. I know you know what you're doing Frank but before we flush many many thousands of dollars of cash down the tidy bowl, don't you think that's an acceptable question? One hundred IMHO's will not dislodge the King from his published throne.

[Yuri D.]

Brian. Your argument is legitimate. Proof would be nice, like a manufacturer's sample board with all styles and variations of badges attached by one maker - a Rosetta Stone for GWL or C.E. Juncker. After all the time that I've been collecting and researching this hobby, I am still constantly looking for such hard evidence. You find it 1% of the time, but the other 99% of the time you rely on other sources of information:

1. Knowledge of more experienced collectors.
2. Books and other literature
3. Observation and documentation
4. Honest dealers
5. Your own common sense.
6. and last but not least - your own experience after you feel confident in your knowledge.


Yuri

[mmiller]

Hi Brians,

I hate to jump in on the 'gang-bang' but I also feel that Frank's Flak Badge is correct, and so is the hallmark on his badge. I guess I would feel that way, though, because my Juncker Flak Badge is almost exactly like his.

Be careful with the 'gawd's new book. While the book is a great contribution to the Hobby, lots of us feel that is also does a great disservice.

I only EVER want a JUNCKER badge that has one type of hallmark.....like the one on Frank's Flakker. Any collector can choose whatever god, reference book, dealer, hallmark, etc. he likes. You are entitled to spend your $$$ however you see fit. Why do you even need proof to return the badge to whom you procured it from? Many reputable dealers will take a badge back and give credit, or a complete refund....no questions asked.

I'm sure we have all been through it. I certainly have. The more money that has been sunk into a crap repro the more desperate we become to 'up the rationalisation' control. Part of this Hobby is about education (which is correctly what you are endevouring upon) and the other part is humbly biting the lip and accepting getting zapped.

Just stick with it, you are on the right track. Just bear in mind that we on the Forum have nothing to gain or lose by critiquing a badge. The same cannot be said about a dealer and/or author.

Regards,
Mark

PS- Who's to say what 'throne' the king is upon sitting thyself???

C.E.JUNCKER Flak Reverse


C.E.JUNCKER Flak Obverse

[Tim Calvert]

Hi Brian,

I would not feel comfortable with your badge at all. Besides the hallmark being far from conventional, the reverse does not show signs of Juncker styled hand finishing. Also, looking at your other thread on this in the General Awards section, I'd say the clasp is wrong too.

If the dealer who sold you this is honorable, then they will refund your $$ simply because you're not 100% satisfied. If they use the excuse "Its been too long", well, these badges are only appreciating in value, so IF they gave you a full refund, they only stand to make $$ by re-selling the badge. Maybe they can sell it to Mr. Tucker?

This hobby has seen some shady business practices, that's for sure. But having someone like Detlev Niemann who will guarantee not only an item but your satisfaction in the item, even 5 years later, has raised the standard.

If the dealer who sold you this badge tries to weasel out of this, you can always post his name here and he will end up on many people's "aviod" list. This is one of the powers of this forum.

Good Luck!
Tim

[ERIC S.]

Up until now I have not responded because I believed this badge was given a fair and honest shake in the other thread in the General Awards forum. Brian, as Frank told you it's not just the logo that is wrong here. The WREATH PATTERN for this badge is not Juncker. As a matter of fact I don't recognize it, period. No one here is trying to put a twist in your knickers. You asked us a question and we answered collectively based on years of experience of collecting, studying, talking to vets and seeing their possessions, interacting with one another, etc. We can only offer what info we can. It's your perogative to believe or disbelieve. But please don't try to make this badge into something you would like it to be vs. something it is.
ERIC

[Brian S]

I never tried to pass it off as anything other than get a reading on the logo. It's exactly this kind of comment that makes people not post, not reply and have no opinion. I do not believe the badge is right. READ MY LIPS. I am looking for proof to convince the vendor. Read, understand, before you make comments my friend.

[ERIC S.]

Well I'm glad you're finally convinced! You were pretty adamant in the other thread on originality of the piece. I realize the dealer schlumped you on this and you want him to make good on it. Anybody would - but is he really going to believe it too? If he doesn't make amends with you, give us his name. You might be pleasantly surprised at the outcome.
ERIC

[Brian S]

Now that's nice, thanks Eric!!!

[Tim B.]

I know this is late, but

I went to post this earlier this morning and kept getting dropped out?? It may be my access number, but on to what I had to say.


Mark,

WOW--Beautiful badge! Best detail that I have seen on these, great looking eagle!

Brians,

I too understand your point you're trying to make here and agree it can be frustrating at times to get the correct answers to your questions. Opinions are like.... so they say, BUT you have a very good opportunity to learn here by many experienced and knowledgeable collectors that have been down the same road before, sometimes on the same piece in question.

Reference books are good too, but I have yet to find the so-called ultimate reference that is 100% accurate and answers all the questions ever asked. It doesn't exist and probably never will as some information is most likely lost forever in destroyed records and files.

I take it by the references above, this badge came from Mike T.? If so, not knowing when you got it, ask for a return or exchange and I'm sure he'll honor it. I don't remember if Mike gives any guarantee on his pieces and what his return/exchange policies are offhand, but I don't see anything posted about it on his site either. Might touch basis with him on that if you feel uncomfortable keeping the piece. He is a member here still, right?
Tim

[Brian S]

Absolutely did NOT come from Mike T. It came from another dealer in 1999. He has agreed to take it back for full credit for future purchases. I appreciate where this has all come to. I think basically everyone understands the need to submit proof. You all are a great bunch of people and you have no idea how much I appreciate the conversation.

[Tim B.]

I know that last post was a bit untimely, but I just wanted to get it off as it expressed my views this morning.

I see that others have come into play here since then and said a lot of the same things, but I am in agreement with Tim C.

If a dealer is honorable and wants to maintain a worthwhile customer base and his/her reputation, then there should be provisions for items that are found to be bad no matter how long it is. My opinion. There are others that do honor this and in today's market, I think it's not only a standard to set and maintain, but an absolute must considering the value and expense of these pieces and the growing number of high-quality fakes.

I will say this for Mike T. He is not the only dealer that has sold a piece of questionable origin and I think all dealers have had to take items back and either refund the money or make an exchange agreeable to both parties, even the best ones. The real difference IMO, is the integrity of the man behind the product.
Tim

[Tim B.]

There you go!

Brians,

Forgive me as I play catch-up!

Sounds like the right move to me and I think that's fair to both parties. Good on the dealer!

My personal advice is to send the badge back. Even if it was good, which I don't believe at all, it would never hold any credibilty or resale potential down the road and you will always question it in your mind. Get something else that you know is good and can enjoy with a clear piece of mind.
Tim

[Brian S]

Thanks Tim! You know, I've met several people now through this forum in Washington. All good guys. We should try to plan some kind of PNW get-together. We could charge admission to any of them Easterners trying to get in.