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**Philippe DB** · 02-07-2003, 05:31 AM

detail of maker mark

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ffs b closeup2.jpg (26.7 KB, 348 views)

**Frank Heukemes** · 02-07-2003, 12:40 PM

Dear Philippe,

As I told you in an email earlier this year, I have heard of these clasps (being good and rare). It is the same maker normally referred to as AGMuK. Hard to tell if yours is really good because of the rot that makes it look rough but I would tend towards good.

Probably other members have seen these in person or even own one.

Cheers, Frank

**Philippe DB** · 02-07-2003, 02:08 PM

Dear Frank,

Thanks for your reply. I asked your opinion on this clasp a couple of weeks ago and as you stated you thought it was original. I’m also convinced that the clasp is original but I only will be 100% sure if I can compare it with another one which shows exactly the same features.

First let me give you some history on this badge. I bought the clasp in 1981 from a guy who had a little WW2 museum in Belgium. On the way out there was a little shop where he sold some stuff. He also had some badges and he made a clear distinction between original and fake. At that time I was just 17 and knew already a little about the existence of fake German WW2 badges. Most of his originals where in fact fake so I started looking at his fake and there I found this badge. After handling the badge I asked him why he thought the badge was fake. His answer was the following “since he was well educated he knew that in WW2 plastics where not yet invented. He was even more clever and also spoke some German. Armed with that knowlegde he had translated “Kunstoff” into “Plastics” and that was prove enough to throw the badge in the fake bin”. Not so clever myself in those days I was lucky whowever. I had an Uncle who worked in the German aviation industry during the war and from him I knew that plastics were used in the production of the glass areas and gun turrets for the Heinkel 111’s. Armed with that knowledge I took a risk and bought his fake Dive Bomber Clasp for $ 5. Those were the days.

Since than the badge is puzzling me. I never saw another one with the same features. In 1982 I posted it to Andre Hüsken and asked him for his opinion. We wrote me a letter back and told me that in his opinion the clasp was good although he never had seen this maker mark before. Because it shows so much zinc rot he thought it was probably grounddug. Thanks to him I know that originally it was bronze and not silver. Under magnification it’s still possible to find little traces of the bronze wash.

And now 20 years later and afther paying my membership fee I was convinced that by posting this badge I would get all the answers I was looking for in a couple of minutes. But I’m under the impression that the mystery surrounding this maker make isn’t resolved so quickly.

I know that the quality of the pictures isn’t very good so on Monday I will try to make some better scans. If anyone would like to see a certain detail of the badge let me know and I’ll do my best.

Kind regards
Philippe

**Rich G** · 02-07-2003, 02:18 PM

Hi Philippe,

good luck with your quest.

Unfortunately when something like this appears it very easy for everyone to simply claim it as fake just because it hasn't been seen before.

But perservere and hopefully there will be a good ending. As for me, I've not seen one either but I'm keeping an open mind.

Rich

**skip** · 02-07-2003, 03:04 PM

Hi all,

well the cast on hinge certainly looks very much like the type encountered on the AGMuK CCC.
The copies of the hollow pressed pin only started appearing about 2-3 years ago, so if bought in the 80s a good sign.
Is the hook pressed in? or soldered on?
How about a pic from the front and the whole back.

I have also never seen a AGMuK flight clasp in any type or material, but you never know, and for 5$ you might have a bargin.

Skip

**Philippe DB** · 02-07-2003, 03:29 PM

Hi everybody,

Thanks for your opinions.

Skip, as far as I can tell the hook is soldered on but I'm not 100% sure because there is also a little zinc rot in that area to. Same goes for the hinge difficult to see if it is an integral part of the clasp or soldered on.

The bomb itself is rivetted. I think the rivet is from an other material than the rest of the badge. The color is more yellow.

At the moment I'm at home I will try to acces my office PC for a picture of the front. If I don't manage that maybe frank still has the pictures on his PC and he can post them here.

However I will try to make better scans on monday and I'm always willing to send the badge to one of our moderaters who knows about these Clasps and can examen it.

regards
Philippe

**Philippe DB** · 02-07-2003, 03:36 PM

some more pictures

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ffs b open.jpg (22.2 KB, 304 views)

**Philippe DB** · 02-07-2003, 03:39 PM

OBSERVE

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ffs f.jpg (11.0 KB, 301 views)

**Philippe DB** · 02-07-2003, 03:46 PM

Hi guys

I just loaded these pictures up from my office PC. It's obvious that they are a little to small but it's the best I can do untill monday.

Maybe by than somebody can come up with pictures of a brother (sister) of this clasp.

Philippe

**RPN** · 02-07-2003, 05:50 PM

Hello Philippe

Here are pics of a Kunstoff clasp I used to own .... 100% original in my opinion. These clasps are a bit rough / crude when compared with other makers of the later period zinc clasps, eg, Osang. I have only seen Bomber clasps by Kunstoff. If you need other references to pics of Kunstoff clasps in books let me know and I'll hunt them up.

Best wishes
Paul

**Philippe DB** · 02-08-2003, 03:37 AM

Hi Paul,

Yesteday evening I was thinking that probably my last change of solving the riddle had to come from douwn under since that were the only guys still a sleep. And it seems I was wright.

Thanks a lot after 20 years I finaly know that it was 5$ well spend.

If it's not to much trouble I would very much appreciate to see other pictures.

Kind regards
Philippe

**RPN** · 02-08-2003, 05:42 PM

Hi Philippe ...

for starters have a look in Angolia "For Fuhrer and Fatherland" Vol1 ... page 228 (1st Edition) ... a good clear pic, albeit small.

Paul

If you don't have this book, send me a pm.

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