Pilotbadge..,which one ?

[spectre]

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[Rich G]

Rich,
Just for just not liking the pattern,or do you've other reasons ?
Just curious..

Jos.

Jos

Nothing mysterious only that I prefer the contrast between the darkened eagle and the silvered wreath. These IMME's just don't give me that pleasure.

Rich

[Neil B]

Great to see the different badges here-have we arrived at a concensus about which type is genuine?

all silver?

greenish eagle?

blackened eagle+wreath?

Thanks,
Neil

[mmiller]

Hi Neil,

Yea, we need everyone who joined in on the thread to chime in. Have you ever done a 'POLL' here on the Forum. We could start a thread with the 2 or 3 'conclusions' that we have drawn.

Mark

[robert60446]

Great to see the different badges here-have we arrived at a concensus about which type is genuine?

all silver?

greenish eagle?

blackened eagle+wreath?

Thanks,
Neil

Guys,
To be honest with you, I really don’t care about JMME discolorations as long as badge is made to accepted period standards and was not refinished. I also think that you cannot divide them: on period made and fakes based on their colors…

[mmiller]

Hi Robert,

How you been? Haven't seen any macro-art lately? Get busy!

On the IMMEs, my only wonder is if period badges (all silver) have had the eagle, and or eagle and wreath, blackened? Don't know why anyone would do that, but in these collecting days and ages......... who knows.

If the badge has the correct strike and hardware, for me, it is original. I think we are just trying to understand the different 'finishing' combinations, and why, if original, they did that at the factory. Weren't the specs for those badges calling for a black eagle on a silver wreath? How could IMME 'break the rules'?

Regards,
Mark

[robert60446]

If the badge has the correct strike and hardware, for me, it is original. I think we are just trying to understand the different 'finishing' combinations, and why, if original, they did that at the factory. Weren't the specs for those badges calling for a black eagle on a silver wreath? How could IMME 'break the rules'?

Hi Mark,
Frank got some great info about the "black color" on eagles (or lack of him). This quote is about the eagle on LW clasp, but i bet the same technique was used on the Pilot Badges too:

If you scrutinize the blackening of these eagle applications very closely on well preserved examples, you will find that it is not a color (as in paint) but a "Brünierung" (same procedure as gunblueing basically) which made the eagle look black in the crevices. This "Brünierung" is not to last long on worn examples, even less than an actual black color would last. Color can chip or get rubbed off, a Brünierung can additionally to those two factors of destruction also fade away. It is also the first thing to disappear if one dips an award finsihed that way into silver dip. After only a few seconds, it is gone forever.

[Jos L C]

Hi Mark,
Frank got some great info about the "black color" on eagles (or lack of him). This quote is about the eagle on LW clasp, but i bet the same technique was used on the Pilot Badges too:

I agree with Frank's theory,but I don't think that the all nickle Jmme's ever got a dip in some stuff..
In that case we also should see many all silver Junckers,Assmans etc..

The typical nickle on the all silver Jmme's is very tough,thick,it's hard to find a "worn" all silver Jmme with tombak shining through like Junckers,Junckers have a much softer finish,..,I'd like to know if the blackened Jmme's are made of the same typical nickle or are they made/finished like Juncker badges ?
Or do they have a nickle Jmme wreath but a "tombak" (Juncker) eagle ?

Jos.

[robert60446]

I'd like to know if the blackened Jmme's are made of the same typical nickle or are they made/finished like Juncker badges ?
Or do they only have a nickle wreath but a "tombak" eagle ?
Jos.

There you go Jos, this is nickel silver JMME eagle wing in detail.

[Jos L C]

I've made a quick shot,it's night here,so there's no natural light,but as you can see the nickle is different from your silver wreath...,so,I guess it's a juncker finish...,no ?

Jos.

[robert60446]

I've made a quick shot,it's night here,so there's no natural light,but as you can see the nickle is different from your silver wreath...,so,I guess it's a juncker finish...,no ?
Jos.

Jos,
How many dies JMME was using? Wing details on your picture are totally different from wing details on my picture…

[Jos L C]

It's a 3rd pattern eagle on a 2nd pattern wreath...,so to speak..

Jos.

[robert60446]

It's a 3rd pattern eagle on a 2nd pattern wreath...,so to speak..

Jos.

Do you know a time frame for the introduction of the 3rd pattern eagle? Would it be late 1943 / early 1944?

[Jos L C]

Do you know a time frame for the introduction of the 3rd pattern eagle? Would it be late 1943 / early 1944?

Much earlier,quality is too good for that..,in your time frame they already had the zink badges..

Jos.

[robert60446]

Much earlier,quality is too good for that..,in your time frame they already had the zink badges..

Jos.

Ok then, I guess we can agree on 1942?
Anyhow, I think we have to see more JMME detailed pictures to move it whole discussion forward...