Luft badges in wear. Can anyone I.D.?

[colin davie]

Hello guys,
I have a couple of badges featured in original photos, can anyone I.D. the makers? Tall order, but I've seen you do it with other stuff.
Cheers
Colin

First up an Air Gunner.

[Neil Howes]

Possible Assmann?

Neil

[colin davie]

Pilot Badge.
Any help appreciated.
C.

[colin davie]

Jeez Neil, your quick on the draw

[J Temple-West]

I agree with Neil on the AG..2nd pattern Assmann with the bolts removed.

PB looks like an early 2nd pattern 'Juncker' or 'Deumer'..

[Scott C.]

I'm a relative novice here, and I'm not questioning the authenticity of the photo, but I find it interesting how low the eagle sits on the wreath of the Air Gunner badge. Is it the angle of the badge in the picture? If it once had lightning bolts, it appears they would have touched/overlaped the top of the swaz.

Scott

[mmiller]

I'm inclined to agree with Scott on this one. I don't see how 'blitzen' could have ever been on that badge. They would have been way too low. Maybe still an Assmann.

Another possibility, would be a GWL. But the wreath on the pix is fatter that that?

What's odd about the AG photo, is that the pin is clearly visable behind the wreath. I would have thought that the badge would 'fit' snugger with the pin behind the tunic material?

Mark

[colin davie]

Before I have to go out, I put this together with 2 Assmann buntmetal and Assmann aluminium RO/AG badges which I chopped the lightning bolts off in my computer, to me also the eagles sit considerably higher on the known Assmanns.
Don't know what is meant by 2nd pattern though.
C
Thanks for help so far.

[colin davie]

Pic, look forward to your thought when I get back.
C

[Neil Howes]

Colin,

There are 2 versions of the Assmann WO/AG badge one produced pre war & is finer in structure & quality. Hence term 2nd pattern. Juncker have 3!

Neil

[J Temple-West]

Ummm, Yes, Well, my fault in using a sloppy description.. Although I have seen Assmann RO/AG's with the bolts actually laying on the wreath... Placement of bird to wreath was never an exact science for Assmann.

Perhaps without bolts would have been less confusing?

Below... Pre-war 1st pattern / wartime 2nd pattern Assmann..

[Rich G]

Ummm, Yes, Well, my fault in using a sloppy description.. Although I have seen Assmann RO/AG's with the bolts actually laying on the wreath... Placement of bird to wreath was never an exact science for Assmann.

Perhaps without bolts would have been less confusing?

Below... Pre-war 1st pattern / wartime 2nd pattern Assmann..

John

I notice the eagleon the '1st patt' Assmann is remarkably like the eagle on the early Juncker. Another case of component sharing?

Rich

[J Temple-West]

Hi R,

Very close, but not quite the same... I think there must have been a designer's master artwork issued to all makers that the die-cutters worked from.. The slight differences came about with the craftsman interpretation of the drawing.
If there was no design artwork, how did each maker come up with the same number of leaves to the wreath, same number of feathers, positioning of the talons, etc just from the official description which appeared in the ‘Luftwaffen-Verordnungsblatt (the official orders of the Luftwaffe)?

This applies to all badges.

[J Temple-West]

Here's a close-up of an earlier 1st pat' (left) Assmann RO/AG next to its Juncker (right) equivalent... eagles heads are so close that you would think that the dies were by the same hand.

Rerhaps the dies were from the same source?<O</O

[colin davie]

Of the Assmanns, doesn't the tail feather always appear 1/2 way up the bunches of leaves on the right? There are 9 bunches, the tail feathers appear to fall half way on the fifth/middle bunch... unless I'm counting it stupid, interestingly of the 2 types of Assmann variant one of them has 10 bunches of leaves, but the tail feathers still fall at the 5.5 mid point.
C