R.K. Minesweeper Makers' Mark Variants

[Norm F]

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I have found only 2 examples not fully matching your system (pictures found on the web enclosed). IMO these examples represent variant 4 but with a dull left water crest.

If I could add something to yours and Tony's conclusions I would say that all variants, except of variant 8, share a common feature of slightly concave spout reverse.
...

Hi Hubert and Tony,

This is great -- three minesweeper geeks on one thread!

Yes, I saw those level 4 examples with the dull left water crest and meant to change that to "sharp or dull" in the table but forgot to before posting. Once we've collected more observations and corrections I'll post an updated table.

And eventually obverse examples would indeed be a nice addition since perhaps it's possible to see progressive die wear -- although I would suspect that obverse die wear may be slower for these die cast badges than for die struck badges.

It's interesting to me that all the 9-wave variants, regardless of which of the 3 fonts that are seen with it, have the mark at the lowest three levels. And also perhaps noteworthy that the Level 7 with it's non-serif font seems to have more concavity to the water spout then either Levels 6 or 8 with the two different serif fonts, making Level 7 more similar to its Level 4,5 "brothers". My own Level 6 serif font badge is still en route so I'll have a better sense of it's relative concavity when it arrives, but it does seem to me that Level 7 with the non-serif font is more concave than Level 6.

Although I've currently placed them in consecutive descending order of the level of the maker mark, I suspect the true timeline may place level 7 before level 6, next to it's higher brothers with the same font.

I postulate the following train of events: After Level 5 production, the obverse die is altered or repaired by the graveur resulting in the next three 9-wave variants. The first "9-wavers" use the same reverse die as Levels 4 and 5 but with the mm moved down to the level 7 position. Perhaps after that, having gone through so many previous alterations, it was necessary to make a new reverse die for the Level 6 and 8 production resulting in a product with less concavity to the reverse of the water spout?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

...

Although I've currently placed them in consecutive descending order of the level of the maker mark, I suspect the true timeline may place level 7 before level 6, next to it's higher brothers with the same font.

I postulate the following train of events: After Level 5 production, the obverse die is altered or repaired by the graveur resulting in the next three 9-wave variants. The first "9-wavers" use the same reverse die as Levels 4 and 5 but with the mm moved down to the level 7 position. Perhaps after that, having gone through so many previous alterations, it was necessary to make a new reverse die for the Level 6 and 8 production resulting in a product with less concavity to the reverse of the water spout?
...

I hope this doesn't confuse people but after contemplating what I wrote above, I've come up with "version 2" of this RK maker mark classification, and decided to switch levels 6 and 7 in order to more logically group the non-serif font variants together. I've also corrected the descriptions in the "left water crest" column.

Cheers.
---Norm

[Andreas Klein]

Perhaps this could be of interest for this thread too:

What makes RK to Rudolf Karneth?

[Norm F]

Perhaps this could be of interest for this thread too:

What makes RK to Rudolf Karneth?

Hi Andreas,

Very interesting question there about Rudolf Karneth versus R. Kreisel.

Karneth had both a PK and an LDO number whereas we don't see an R. Kreisel listed (although that could be the same as H. Kreisel, Gablonz who is PK #67). We know Karneth was getting orders from the PK sometime between February and May, 1940 but Kreisel is a bit of a mystery...doesn't rule it out though.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Norm,

i found a list of the PK which says that #67 is "Rudolf H. Kreisel" so that it could be the mentioned R. Kreisel from the ad making him to an official suplier of the PK.

[Norm F]

Hi Norm,

i found a list of the PK which says that #67 is "Rudolf H. Kreisel" so that it could be the mentioned R. Kreisel from the ad making him to an official suplier of the PK.

Hi Andreas,

Very interesting. Where is that list from listing Rudolf H. Kreisel? Is it an official source of some sort?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Norm,

it can be foound via google So far not any official list of PK numbers was ever found.

[Norm F]

Hi Norm,

it can be found via google So far not any official list of PK numbers was ever found.

No. If you google "Rudolf H. Kreisel" there are no hits except this thread we're in.

Cheers.
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

Norm,
You can find lists with Rudolf H. Kreisel on several web sites but it is a snow ball effect IMO.
I found no evidence which could be verified that they officialy had their number.
Kind regards,
Hubert

[Norm F]

You can find lists with Rudolf H. Kreisel on several web sites ...

Well, like I say, if you google "Rudolf H. Kreisel" at least from Canada you get no hits at all except for this thread...odd.

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Norm,

"Rudolf" is the problem because imo the real name behind "R" is Robert. Than you find Robert H. Kreisel.

[Norm F]

Hi Norm,

"Rudolf" is the problem because imo the real name behind "R" is Robert. Than you find Robert H. Kreisel.

Thanks Andreas, now I see it. Robert is a pretty unusual name in German, isn't it?

Cheers.
---Norm

[Stepdale]

In the 1939 list of businesses in Gablonz, there is both a Richard and Robert Kreisel listed. Each is described as a producer of bijouterie (jewelry) and rollierserzeugung (rolling production?) and have an address of Flurgasse 1. There are several other Kreisels listed in Gablonz at different addresses on the Flurgasse and one on a different street, but all have different businesses than jewelry. There is a Hermine Kreisel at Flurgasse 17, but listed as a modistin (clothier or clothing designer?). I have seen PK lists which show #67 as H. Kreisel, but I believe this should be R. Kreisel.

So far, the only badge or medal I have ever found marked 67 is a BWB.

[Andreas Klein]

Hi,

the award making R. Kreisel was located in "Gebirgsstraße 106, Gablonz".

[Norm F]

For future reference, I'm adding to this thread the observation that the Level 6, 9-wave, zinc variants show a distinctive vertical die flaw on the reverse of the water plume.