Opinion RK MS badge

[Bruce Simcox]

Hi Norm

......Thank you for the correction. I apologize to everyone for my mistake.

@RKC: I'm waiting for Santa to bring me a nice Auxiliary Cruiser. I hope it comes with the proper guilding

[RKC]

Bruce....

I've got you down for one but, I've got to check The LIST first!

[Norm F]

I think it is important to mention that the RK manufacturing mark has not yet been conclusively identified as either Karneth or Kriesel [sic]. It will be great news when a connection is established.

Just a bit more detail for those who aren't aware of what Bruce was referring to.

In the the KM badge world, there are "R.K." U-Boat and Minesweeper badges (and in other spheres there are also other R.K. marked products like the PAB, numbered GAB and RO/AG, not to mention metal breast and cap eagles, etc.), all showing typical features of Gablonz production.

For some time, collectors have jumped to the conclusion that the mysterious "R.K." was mostly likely the initials of "Rudolf A. Karneth & Sohn" whose Gablonz Metallwarenfabrik was assigned the Präsidialkanzlei Lieferant number 61. However, in more recent years the competing theory arose of "R.K" perhaps representing Robert Kreisel, another known Gablonz manufacturer with the same initials who was assigned the PK number 67.

But furthermore, given that there are no less than 9 sets of tooling for the R.K. Minesweeper badge, one also cannot rule out the possibility that the "R.K" mark appeared on products produced by a consortium, similar to the situation with "A.G.M.u.K." marked products.

Pavel Strej, who has done the most Gablonz-based research, has noted:

I studied all the Karneth company documents that I have available, .... The documents don't show many war records. The records start mainly after the war when the Karneth factory was confiscated by the Czech state. But what I can definitely see there is, that Karneth supplied to AGMuk, to Heeresgruppe Mitte Liberec ( Reichenberg) and to Rüstungsinspektion Liberec (Reichenberg). He worked also a lot with Julius Pietsch (Gablonz) but this is not strange as they were neighbours - their factories were next door.

There is also a record that R. Kreisel was customer of Karneth. But this is no big surprise usually the Supplier/Customer lists of Gablonz companies show many other Gablonz names, as the cooperation between Gablonz companies was very common also in the in the times before war.

So that's where we stand today. There is no proof yet for the RK attribution to any one maker (as duly noted in the KM reference books in the context of the "RK" U-boat and Minesweeper badges), and it's even possible that RK-marked products were produced by a number of subcontracted firms.

Best regards,
---Norm

[RKC]

Thank you Norm for this additional information
on 'R.K.' background .. I just bought one of the
R.K. marked U-Boot badges.

Ron.

[Norm F]

Hi Ron,

You'll want to keep in mind that there are good Staegemeir fakes of the RK U-Boat badge floating around -- always a good idea to post images or make careful comparisons to originals.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Stepdale]

Actually, there's no Richard Kriesel --- it's Robert Kreisel.

Best regards,
---Norm

Norm,
Just a little more background on the Kreisel/RK/RK in a circle debate. The 1939 Gablonz Address Book separately lists both a Robert and a Richard Kreisel, each listed as specializing in Bijouterie and Rollierserzeugung, and located at Flurgasse 1 in Gablonz. Here is some more info on them as provided to me in an email from Pavel in Gablonz:

"...the company R. Kreisel was only one in Gablonz. Official company name was R. KREISEL. It was owned by Robert Kreisel and Richard Kreisel ( maybe brothers, but I dont know ). The company was founded in 1929. It was located in 2 buildings, the buildings are connected together, but they are located on corner of 2 streets. Thatsway each building has different address: One is Gebirgsstraße 106 and the other one Flurgasse 1. Sometimes you can see that they used both streets as company address, but Gebirgstrasse 106 was more common."

So as you can see, there is no surety whether R. Kreisel was Robert or Richard, just as there is still no definitive proof I know of that proves PKO number 67, currently listed as assigned to H. Kreisel, should really be R. Kreisel, though I believe it should be.

Just in case, Pavel says he has the written proof to back up his claims on R. Kreisel. There have been so many threads on the RK debate I'm not sure if he has posted these documents reference Kreisel, though I know he has on Karneth.

Confused yet? I certainly get that way when it comes to the Gablonz mysteries.
Dale

[Norm F]

Thanks for the update Dale. Regarding the PK number lists on the net, some list H. Kreisel and some list R. Kreisel, although certainly only R. Kreisel fits with the Gablonz directories so I presume the "H." was an early typo that was perpetuated.

Another thing I'm unclear on is what were the primary sources for the venerable PK Lieferant number list that we've inherited over the decades and all take for granted?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Stepdale]

No idea where those originated from. I have heard various theories that those have been put together over the years by collectors/researchers using various sources, but that there was never an "official" list of those put out by the PK itself. If someone has different references for the PK Lieferant number list, I will be glad to stand corrected.
Dale

[Bruce Simcox]

Guys

.......@Norm and Dale: Thank you both for providing us with this excellent information, based on genuine research work. These contributions of yours to the collecting community are noteworthy and, in my case, sincerely appreciated!

[Stepdale]

You're welcome, but be sure and add Pavel S in Gablonz (Now known as Jablonec) to your list. He has more knowledge on Gablonz makers than anyone I know.
Dale

[Bruce Simcox]

Hi Dale

You're welcome, but be sure and add Pavel S in Gablonz (Now known as Jablonec) to your list. He has more knowledge on Gablonz makers than anyone I know.
Dale

......Of course you are correct. I should not have left Pavel out. His contributions are duly noted, and are just as gladly appreciated. His research has been overlooked, and mostly unknown by me until recently.

@ Pavel S. of Gablonz: Thank you for the valuable research you have done, and for sharing it with the collecting community.

[Graeme]

So as you can see, there is no surety whether R. Kreisel was Robert or Richard, just as there is still no definitive proof I know of that proves PKO number 67, currently listed as assigned to H. Kreisel, should really be R. Kreisel, though I believe it should be.


Dale

Great info guys

Dale,

I have a kvk2 marked 67 in a marked packet for R.Kreisel and I suspect there are others out there, so your assumption that 67 = R.Kreisel rather than H.Kreisel is a fairly good assumption imo.

regards
Grame

[Stepdale]

Graeme,
Thanks for that info. I have a 67 marked KVK2 but no packet. I'll add the envelope to my list of things to look for.
Dale

[jack1]

Great info guys

Dale,

I have a kvk2 marked 67 in a marked packet for R.Kreisel and I suspect there are others out there, so your assumption that 67 = R.Kreisel rather than H.Kreisel is a fairly good assumption imo.

regards
Grame

Great work.
Makes sense.