5-feather U-Boat opinions

[John T]

neat design

[Norm F]

I do not think this was some elaborate ploy to sneak in a fake.

Well, if we accept those "Th Diele, Schwerin, 9 3 43" production dies at face value, then that means Schwerin had a 2nd design of U-Boat for their zinc production, which would be consistent with the observation that the zinc version of the conventional Schwerin design is inordinately rare. In this scenario, some if not all of the solid zinc 5-feather U-Boats could be wartime.

But at the same time, we know that the hollow Tombak version was post-war made with post-war hardware, so even if it's accepted that the dies were wartime, they were definitely used post-war.

While it would be nice to assume that all the solid zincers were wartime while the hollow Tombaks were post-war, we can't know that for sure given the demonstrated post-war use of hollow version dies. All we can say for sure is that many of these zncers look "wartime compatible" and some have appeared in German vet groupings (as posted by Sascha).

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

I am unable to find CNH in the manufacturer code lists I have access to nor does Th. Diehle come up on a search. Does anybody have information on these that I cannot find?
JAndrew

Here's a very interesting find. I was searching the Berlin address directories on-line (a great reference by the way) and found Theodor Diehle is listed in both the 1940 and 1943 directories. Here's an entry from 1940 in the "Graveure u. Gravieranstalten" section (Engravers and Engraving establishments) showing "Berliner Preß- u Prägeanstalt Theodor Diehle SW68 Kommandantenstr. 53" (Berlin Pressing and Minting establishment Theodor Diehle). And the added bonus, a separate ad on the same page with the description "Stahlstanzen für die gesamte Metallindustrie" (steel die cutting for the whole metal industry).

So indeed, Diehle was a die maker in Schwerin's neighbourhood during the war. Furthermore, I couldn't find any listing of Theodor Diehle in the 1954-onwards telephone directories. This adds considerably to the credibility of that "5-feather" die in post #10, in my opinion.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

It also occurs to me that it's possible that the positive die from post #10 may not originally have been a reverse die for the hollow version of the badge; it could have been a positive hub for the purpose of creating the negative obverse working dies for the solid version.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Here's a Google map showing that it's only a 15 minute walk from Schwerin's location on Charlottenstrasse 4 to Diehle's business on Kommandantenstrasse 53.

[RichardT]

Better pictures of these three zincers are attached.

Richard

[RichardT]

And one more.

[John T]

HI Norm,

Thank you for that research.

That is simply fantastic detective work.

John

[Martin W]

HI Norm,

Thank you for that research.

That is simply fantastic detective work.

John

Indeed it is.

[Norm F]

Better pictures of these three zincers are attached.

Richard

Hi Richard,

Those zinc planchets look like the Pforzheim design -- possibly B.H. Mayer and/or F&B (except that F&B didn't make the Fleet badge). Do you know of any story behind them?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Bob Hritz]

This may shed a little more information:


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hritz+feathers

Bob Hritz

[Norm F]

This may shed a little more information:


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hritz+feathers

Bob Hritz

Hi Bob,

Yes, yours was probably the earliest WAF thread on these 5-feather U-boats, and certainly yours is the earliest first-hand collector experience reported (ie. 1960's), almost as far back as the Klietmann 1957 reference.

In that 2005 thread (as now) one already had the sense that the solid version looked quite convincing while the hollow one did not, and the subsequent postings of the hollow type with circa 1960's setups put that one to rest.

But even the solid type was subject to skepticim at times, not only because of the unique wing feather configuration but also because they sometimes turned up refinished or with replaced hardware like this one: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=269594. It didn't help that a solid one showed up with the post-war "65" mark that has appeared on a variety of post-war leftovers and fakes: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=741018.

Aside from the forensic and anecdotal evidence at the beginning of this thread, the Schwerin/Diehle dies are the most compelling evidence for wartime production. But given that these dies survived to the present day, one still has to consider the possibility that they were pulled out and used sometime in the post-war period, at least for the hollow version but possibly for a run of the solid version as well.

Personally, on the evidence so far, I think it's likely that the solid version was produced in wartime (probably the examples with the most convincing construction, finish and wear) but there's a significant chance for others being produced or at least assembled and finished post-war. This puts it in a similar category of judgement as Souval "wartime-compatible" badges and some S&L zinc production as well.

And I think there's no chance for the hollow version being produced in wartime since the dies are dated 1943, at which time we know there was already clear instruction (mentioned in the 1942 S&L/Wissmann correspondence) that badges had to be massive at this point.

Best regards,
---Norm

[all1knew]

Hello again,

When I showed my badge to Thomas Durante at the SOS he did not believe the finish was a wartime product. I don't know if this hands-on inspection adds anything, but I thought I would mention I did have this looked at. How does the finish on this badge compare to other local makers' zinc KM badges of the period?

William Kramer

[Norm F]

Hi William,

I agree with Tom's impression of your badge being refinished. This is not uncommon for this type, and also some of S&L's zinc U-Boats, which adds to the notion of at least post-war manipulation of leftover stock.

In contrast, here's an example (previously posted by Sascha) from a German grouping with a much more genuine looking finish.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Here's one (from Steve) with a well-preserved gilding (whether wartime or post-war) which nevertheless still looks better than the finish on William's.