Destroyer opinions. S&L?

[Dave Wyatt]

I'm posting this for a friend. Looks like an S&L but with out the long hook. Badge is made out of tombak. Thoughts?

[Norm F]

Hi Dave,

Nice badge but not S&L. It's the Deumer-attributed Tombak Minesweeper. These come with both vertical and horizontal pin setups. Some call them the "unmarked G.W.L." but they're single-struck in contrast to the double-struck G.W.L. marked badges.

Best regards,
---Norm

(Not sure where I found the images of the vertical pin one here but the horizontal pin examples belongs to WAF member schwelch.)

[Norm F]

Here are the Deumer Tombak Minesweepers with the same setups as the Destroyers.

[Norm F]

And the L/11 marked versions.

[Dave Wyatt]

Awesome! Thanks for clearing that up Norm!

[BubbaZ]

I agree with Norm, very nice Deumer tombak Destroyer
Here is mine, GWL marked example.
Cheers,
Hubert

[John T]

Hi Norm:

When you say they are single struck in contrast to double struck GWL marked pieces do you mean that the GWL pieces are double struck because they have a second strike to stamp in the maker mark, or are they double struck such as proof coins where the design is actually struck into the planchet twice (in proof coins it can be multiple times)?

Thank you very much.

John

[Norm F]

Hi Norm:

When you say they are single struck in contrast to double struck GWL marked pieces do you mean that the GWL pieces are double struck because they have a second strike to stamp in the maker mark, or are they double struck such as proof coins where the design is actually struck into the planchet twice (in proof coins it can be multiple times)?

Thank you very much.

John

Hi John,

Impossible for me to say. Either the badge is double struck and then the G.W.L. punched in with some tool, or the badge is single struck with a plain reverse die and then struck again pairing a marked reverse die with the same or similar obverse die. Whatever the method, the ghosting is often very apparent on the obverse of the G.W.L badges but absent on the unmarked badges. I don't know if we'll ever figure out exactly what was the working relationship between Deumer and G.W.L. (if any) to account for these badges.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Jelle M.]

Would like to add my GWL destroyer to this thread.
Perhaps the best manufacturer for the destroyer?

[John T]

Hi John,

Impossible for me to say. Either the badge is double struck and then the G.W.L. punched in with some tool, or the badge is single struck with a plain reverse die and then struck again pairing a marked reverse die with the same or similar obverse die. Whatever the method, the ghosting is often very apparent on the obverse of the G.W.L badges but absent on the unmarked badges. I don't know if we'll ever figure out exactly what was the working relationship between Deumer and G.W.L. (if any) to account for these badges.

Best regards,
---Norm

HI Norm,

Thank you for the explanation. I always liked the GWL pieces and I never made the connection to the unmarked minesweeper badges and to these destroyers that are unmarked. I will have to study these closer.

John

[BubbaZ]

Hi Guys,
As far as I can remember tombak unmarked horizontal setup Deumer type Destroyers can be found both single struck and double struck, so this double strike feature has nothing to do with striking the GWL marking IMO.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,
As far as I can remember tombak unmarked horizontal setup Deumer type Destroyers can be found both single struck and double struck, so this double strike feature has nothing to do with striking the GWL marking IMO.
Cheers,
Hubert

Interesting Hubert. We need photos posted of an unmarked double-struck badge to illustrate.

Here are a couple of single struck unmarked examples -- round-wire pin setup first followed by horizontal pin setup.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

A couple of double-struck GWL-marked examples for comparison.

[BubbaZ]

Interesting Hubert. We need photos posted of an unmarked double-struck badge to illustrate.

How about this one previously posted by Jan Arne? I know that the image is not the best and the eagle is blurry but on the bottom of the wreath I can see double strike effect.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

Hi Hubert,

I wouldn't want to make any assumptions based on that image. We'll have to keep looking for closeups.

A single strike leaf vein, depending on the light reflection, can look like three parallel lines consisting of the central vein and a linear furrow on either side of it. In contrast, on the double-struck GWL you can see a doubling of the central vein and wider furrows to either side (images attached).

Best regards,
---Norm