Sawfish patches/small battle units

[Jeff V]

What I wonder about is a comparison to the snipers patch. There is also only one accepted version. There was many times more people qualified to wear the snipers patch than the sawfish badge and yet where are all the unissued snipers patch hoards? They are very difficult to find. There should be many more unissued sniper patches than sawfish IMO.
best wishes,
jeff

[90th Light]

What I wonder about is a comparison to the snipers patch. There is also only one accepted version. There was many times more people qualified to wear the snipers patch than the sawfish badge and yet where are all the unissued snipers patch hoards? They are very difficult to find. There should be many more unissued sniper patches than sawfish IMO.
best wishes,
jeff

What are the numbers ?

How many personal were in the K-Verbände units who would have qualified for the swordfish patch ? Of course the rope and swords is an award so there would naturally will be less of those.

How many actual German snipers were there in WW2 who qualified for the snipers badge verses sharpshooters who did not qualify.

IMO before we can not make sweeping statements before we have researched the numbers.

Also what was found still in stores in May 1945 verses what was not ???

Chris

[Jeff V]

There is no way of knowing the numbers. However, it is not that hard for me to believe that the wehrmacht, which had a fairly extensive sniper program would have produced far more qualified candidates than a group of people who volunteered to ride torpedoes in virtual suicide missions. My point is: where are all the hoards of sniper patches?

[90th Light]

There is no way of knowing the numbers. However, it is not that hard for me to believe that the wehrmacht, which had a fairly extensive sniper program would have produced far more qualified candidates than a group of people who volunteered to ride torpedoes in virtual suicide missions. My point is: where are all the hoards of sniper patches?

I understand what you are saying Jeff,

but not every sharpshooter got a snipers badge. It would interesting to know how many actually qualified for it. The danger is that every German soldier with a scope on his rifle is deemed a sniper today which is not right.

On the other hand, the "K-Verbände" units are bigger than I thought. They fought in Germany, Norway, Holland, France, Italy, Croatia and to a lesser extent Denmark, Greece, Austria that I know of. Every model of their one and two man subs (manned torpedos & midget submarines) was built in production numbers around 200 to 300 for each model. These probably totaled around 1000. They had equal numbers (200-300 ?) of remote control explosive surface motorboats and there are also frogmen (combat swimmers). There was certainly a number of Flotille

It would be interesting to research exactly how many personal were in this unit overall.

We have no way of knowing what happened to any remaining stocks of snipers badges at the end of WW2. Did such a stock survive the war. The same applies to the K-Verband badges, did a stock of these survive the war or not ???

Chris

[Jeff V]

Hi Chris, fair enough.
jeff

[90th Light]

Hi Chris, fair enough.
jeff

Thanks Jeff,

this unit seems to have captured my interest so I have begun to get into some real research about them.

Here are a couple of images of what the allies were capturing in 1945. it certainly give one an idea of the numbers. Did each one of these one man subs have its own pilot who would have worn a basic swordfish badge ?

Also if the badges have been post war reproduced, you would think that we would see more of the highest grade of the cloth patch with a rope and 3 swords (grade 4). However we do not, they are as rare as hens teeth. At least as rare as a sniper badge if not rarer,

Chris

[Jeff V]

Hi Chris, you have motivated me to haul out my book by Waldemar Trojca. The title is Marine-Kleinkampfverbande 1939-1945. A superb book!
jeff

[germanpolice]

small battle units

New photo in for me, question, I believe the insignia is on the wrong arm?

[Norm F]

Hi germanpolice,

Interesting. Mind you I don't think we really know the correct arm for the "Bewährungs-Abzeichen", i.e. candidate's patch? Maybe just the actual award patches were worn on the opposite arm. There are very few photos of them in wear; the only other one I know was from "The Kriegsmarine Awards" and that photo is described as taken in captivity, likely post-war, so again could be non-regulation wear?

Good topic.

Best regards,
---Norm

(I'm uploading your photo from the host server (with the greenish tint) so it's not lost later and also the page from "The Kriegsmarine Awards" for comparison.)

[compressore]

Germanpolice,
Very interesting photo...any more information on this?
Regards
Christian

[germanpolice]

No more info. sorry

[John R.]

Merged thread with above photo into existing thread started by Ludwig.

John

[John R.]

New photo in for me, question, I believe the insignia is on the wrong arm?

See post 39.

John

[Norm F]

I would go with Michel's uniform in post 39, not the POW photo.

John

Hi John,

Maybe, but there's no current indication that the patch on Michel's uniform is genuine so who knows where that patch goes. If indeed that is the location then likely it would often require moving all the rating and specialty insignia down further.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Norm, there is also the upper right sleeve division patch, normally red I think which indicated which section was on watch or for liberty purposes. That is not a rating or rank patch, it is a section patch and is a horizontal stripe (s).

Also, in the Marine Hitler Youth, due to the armband on the left sleeve, patches are found on the right sleeve.

John