Another S-boat. Schwerin

[John R.]

OK, I have made some very minor edits to Tony's and Norm's posts and the thread is now open.

The situation right now is that Tony desires a more comprehensive discussion of this badge. The badge has been removed from the Fake Gallery as he requested.

Tony does not accept the conclusions so far or at the minimum feels that the conclusions are simply opinions and not fact. Fair enough I think we can agree.

As I see it, but would like others to add to this discussion, the situation is that some, including me, feel that this particular badge has irregularities when compared to accepted originals of this type.

Specifically:

1. Top hook not consistent with accepted originals
2. Missing diagonal die flaw seen in most, but not all, period examples
3. Maker mark not consistent with accepted originals although we all have to admit there is variation in maker marks for period examples.

Tony has indicated that he will provide weights and measurements when he has them so that we can compare that data with other examples of this badge.

Further, Tony has demonstrated that the badge dates back to at least 1980 or so and therefore the statements that the badge is a new and dangerous fake is clearly not correct. It clearly is not new in any case but 1980 was still a long time after the war ended naturally.

I think this is where we stand so lets take it from here and discuss this badge in more detail.

John

[Tiger 1]

Thanks John and Norm.

I extend an apology to those members who may feel offended by my Chicago way doing things.
Tough town. We play often hard ball on the street and not on a grassy field. Knees and elbows do get skinned at times.

Anyway.....being around this hobby for a while we all eventualy learn that sometimes things are not always set in stone or seem to exactly match up with accepted examples.That's what makes collecting what we do so fasinating.
I realise that there are some points of contention. A spirited debate at times is part of collecting and should be welcomed.

I will try to get better pics and some weights and measurements posted. If it's not right after that, so be it. It won't be the first time....but as someone mentioned...let's not throw the baby out with the water.

All the best!

Tony

In collecto flagrante since 1966.
(that's latin forI'm an old fart.)

[JAndrew]

Tony,
First of all, nice EK's on the crosses forum.

Please let me point out the things that bother me about this badge beyond what has already been said and also let me preface this by saying that in any of these fora we are looking at photos and that can be a poor substitute for the badge being in hand. Perhaps some of what I will point out is simply artifact. You will have to tell me if I am really seeing what I think I see.

In the attached photo I have circled areas of concern. Most appear to be either small, round raised areas or small pits. I have only seen this on cast fakes where in the process of making the mold small bubbles of air became trapped, most often on detail lines, that then transferred to the casting as tiny beads of material.

The second area of concern is behind the bridge. All the badges I have seen have the circled areas cut out.
JAndrew

[all1knew]

here's another badge I believe to be a fake, for reference.

[Dr.Vet]

100% fake.

[Dr.Vet]

There is an easy way to verify the authenticity of I model Schwerin S-Boot badge.
In the original over the hinge is a recess. In this recess You should look for a small
metal delamination.
Regards Jakub

[Nordmark]

100% fake.

These are the very helpful comments one needs, when one would like to learn something and have a valuable discussion.

[Thomas Bendixen]

These are the very helpful comments one needs, when one would like to learn something and have a valuable discussion.

And is your comment more helpfull?

Tony, can you describe the basemetal, is the basemetal brass coloured like you see on other Schwerin buntmetall badges? In the pics its looks a bit paler?

Kr. Thomas

[Darrell]

Tony, all due respect, but heaven help the person that calls one of your box of chocolates fake ....

My eyes got opened a bit by your response to opinions expressed ... shocked actually ...

[Norm F]

Tony, all due respect, but heaven help the person that calls one of your box of chocolates fake ....

My eyes got opened a bit by your response to opinions expressed ... shocked actually ...

Hi Darrell,

To be fair, Tony wasn't angry about the opinions expressed about his badge, but rather about the badge being posted so quickly in the fake's gallery, before "due process" as it were. This matter is now resolved so let's put all this "heat of the moment" stuff behind us now and stick to the analysis of this badge --- an excellent topic from which we all benefit.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

here's another badge I believe to be a fake, for reference.

Hi William,

Yes, the badge you posted is the fake that's relatively easy to spot with the high-riding rim to the concavity on the reverse, and the wrong format maker mark. It's the same type as the badge from post #4.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Tony, can you describe the basemetal, is the basemetal brass coloured like you see on other Schwerin buntmetall badges? In the pics its looks a bit paler?

Kr. Thomas

Perhaps the photos make the base metal look paler than usual, but there's another concern regarding the finish.

S-Boat should have received a relatively durable silvered layer before the final application of the white frosting which is the first thing to wear off. (This is the same on Schwerin Minesweeper's water plume.)

In this comparison you see the typical look of a worn Schwerin on the left in which the silver layer is exposed and residual frosting can be seen in the crevices. In contrast, on the badge from the top of the thread, despite extensive "wear", a considerable amount of frosting remains, and where it is worn or chipped off (and it shouldn't chip that way IMO) you see the pale base metal showing with no silvered layer.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

In this comparison, similar to the one in post #2, it's again apparent that this badge did not use the Schwerin trimming stamp for the internal cutouts as it's missing the usual depressed inner margin with characteristic tooling marks. Furthermore, although hard to see on this image, there appears to be a seam of some kind on the edge of the inner margin -- it would be good to see closeups of this area.

[Norm F]

The obverse is very close to standard but even so, on magnification, there are small differences in detail when you compare to three standard originals as seen in this comparison. The red arrows mark details not seen in the comparators and the green arrows show a cleft in the originals not seen in the badge in question.

In my opinion, for this badge to be original one would have to postulate that Schwerin produced a short run of badges from a different die set, without the use of his trimming stamp, using thicker wire for the top hook, slightly different hardware, a different method of finish compared with all his other Tombak badges and creating an unexplained linear defect along the margin of the internal cutouts not seen on other examples.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

I've been searching past threads and discovered this thread from 2004 with a posting of the same type of badge:
Napredak Schnellboot Badge

Unfortunately the obverse image is gone but the reverse shows the same thick wire top hook, pin system, lack of trimming stamp, filed margins and maker mark with the high-riding "6". It caused some consternation back then.

The bottom margin of the concavity on the reverse seems to be a little higher and straighter. This makes me wonder if the other example being discussed here experienced some flattening in this area. The both look slightly different from the usual (comparator provided).

Best regards,
---norm