R.S. Destroyer on e-stand

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

I thought this R.S. Destroyer that just sold on e-stand for $180 was worth discussing. Any comments?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

.

[Frank K]

Was thinking the same - eg the inside of the wreath is very straight.

[Norm F]

Was thinking the same - eg the inside of the wreath is very straight.

Hi Frank,

Sure is. Here's a comparison to what we accept as "wartime-compatible" Souval Destroyers. Although these badges are die cast the internal cutouts appear to be from a separate stamping process resulting in quite complex contours, and sometimes the characteristic depressed margin seen on other maker's badges as well. In contrast, the badge in question has been hand-finished to cause smooth featureless contours. (green arrows).

Also, Souval Destroyers have very characteristic surface markings on the reverse, (some of which are marked with red arrows). These features are mostly absent from the badge in question, although one still see the maker mark and the round ejection pin pads. And is it just me, or does the whole badge seem thicker than the usual Souvals? We'd need weights and dimensions to be sure.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Another example of this variety with the same features of smoothly finished internal margins, lack of surface features and round-wire "question-mark" catch on a small catch plate was posted recently in this thread:
"Destroyer badg R.S."
That one also had a dubious finish. The internal cutout margins are such a close match that it's hard to attribute this to hand finishing, so they may have been cast that way or trimmed with a different type of stamp to produce that look.

As we all know, Souval's output continued for decades after the war. While these "smooth" badges could indeed be made by Souval, they don't fall in the category of what we usually call "wartime-compatible", and IMO will remain suspect unless one can be found with strong provenance.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Interestingly, here's an obviously post-war badge with the typical post-war Souval catch and an "L/58" stamp. Although different contours from the badges in question, the internal margins are once again smooth. It's tempting to equate "smooth" with post-war finishing techniques...

Cheers.
---Norm

[Norm F]

Finally, I just noticed something super-odd. The two examples of the "smooth" variant have what appears to be absolutely identical "soldering" patterns. That suggests this feature is in the casting die by this time. Seems more and more post-war to me.

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

I agree Norm, I do not like these twins either now.
Not only soldering patterns are identical but also wear pattern looks the same...
When I first saw such badge I thought it was just given a lot of hand finishing but now when more examples pop up they look very odd.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Mike Kenny]

Are we sure we are not looking at exactly the same ?repainted badge that has been stripped and/or cleaned? The one in the other thread and the one in this thread look the same down to the bend in the main pin and ?flaws on the hinge.

Regards
Mike

[Don D.]

I think they are the same badge. One pic obviously used the flash.

[Norm F]

Wow, you're right Guys! It's the same badge, partially stripped. The power of the community!
So, initially owned and posted by "718design" on May 21 and then stripped and ultimately sold on e-stand by "Agnes Drahim" on Aug 1.

So we're not seeing two of the same casting, but rather a single mysteriously-smooth atypical "Souval" -- possibly post-war production?

Cheers.
---Norm

[panzer wittman]

Great detective work guys! Brilliant thread all round. Really helpful for people like me still building on their knowledge.
Many thanks

[John T]

Interesting thread guys. I agree it is the same badge

[MMM]

They are not the same

Look at the design and shape of the bridge

The angle underneath the window is more pronouced on the right hand example

Regards

Mark

[John T]

They are the same, it is because the badge is being held at different angles in the photos, the scraches on the hinge and bend to the pin and catch would not be the same on both if they were not the same badge, you would see some difference...you can even see some of the mouse gray paint residue on the badge on the right side (or would it be battleship grey )...