Early U-boat Badge

[Gordon Williamson]

Check the shape of the eagles head on the zinker. Note also that on the Schwerin badge the central rib of the oakleaf meets the rudder at its mid point. On the zinker it is offset near to the right hand edge. These zinkers didn't come from the Schwerin tooling.

[Gordon Williamson]

S&L U-Boat Badge

S&L - Long Pin - Zinker - Long Pin
S&L - Cut Out Swas - Zinker - Cut Out Swas
S&L - Oakleaf rib offset to right - Zinker -Oakleaf rib offset to right.

Bills Badge - Shorter Pin
Bills Badge - Solid Swas
Bills Badge - Oakleaf rib in centre.

I'd say the zinkers stand a chance of being Steinhauer, but I don't think Bills badge is.

[W. C. Stump]

I have never come across a badge before like the one I posted. Could we have another manufacturer that has come to light?

[Frank Heukemes]

But guys, how can you talk away or (rather not mention) the S&L pin and hinge and especially UNIQUE S&L EK1 catch on Bill´s badge?

[Gordon Williamson]

But guys, how can you talk away or (rather not mention) the S&L pin and hinge and especially UNIQUE S&L EK1 catch on Bill´s badge?

On the other hand, how can you talk away the fact that the obverse is different to the Steinhauer obverse. It makes more sense to me to compare obverse characteristics (which are clearly different) and conclude it isn't S&L rather than say it doesn't matter that the obverse is different because the pin/hinge etc on this U-Boat badge is the same as on an S&L EK, two totally different creatures.

Bill has a very nice original U-Boat badge here, but I can't believe its an S&L.

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Gordon,

I knew you would say that but in all honesty, the S&L catalogue image, which is more of a drawing than a photograph (the guy who retouched it even tilted the swastika to the left while doing so and "overlined" the edges, so much for accuracy) is to my eyes NOT so different from Bill Stump´s example. The non-cut out swaz vs. cut out swaz neglected, of course. But that could have many reasons.
S&L has a very specific catch on their EK1s. Actually seeing that the whole setup is textbook EK1 S&L hardware and the fact that the photograph/line drawing mixture of the catalogue is in fact not very off, makes me seriously wonder if that´s not a S&L.

[Frank Heukemes]

Take into consideration in this comparison that Bill´s badge is tilted backwards in his photograph!

[Tom Yanacek]

Hello all,

Did you guys happen to take notice of what I was talking about on my first post on this thread. Look at the asymmetrical cutout at the keel /lower hull area of the U-boat posted by Bill. Notice the distinct upward curvature of the lower hull forward of the keel. Then look at the lower hull aft of the keel. I think that on most U-boat Badges this cutout area is symmetrical, but not on this one. This is definitely not a match to the image in the S&L Catolog, but is that image a photograph, or just an artistic rendering? It doesn't look like a photo of an actual piece to me. And if it's not a photo of an actual piece, how much weight can that image really carry? When I first saw the photos posted by Bill, I was immediately drawn to the catch of that badge. That catch screamed out S&L to me because I also have an EKI by S&L. The catches are the same. At the same time though, I think that there could have been sharing of hardware/attachment parts between some firms. Or maybe there was sub-contracting involved here. Maybe some producers only stamped the badges, and then received attachment components from outside firms. Maybe even some assembly work was sent out? There are alot of uncertain variables here.
Best regards! Tom yanacek

[Gordon Williamson]

Dear Gordon,

I knew you would say that but in all honesty, the S&L catalogue image, which is more of a drawing than a photograph (the guy who retouched it even tilted the swastika to the left while doing so and "overlined" the edges, so much for accuracy) is to my eyes NOT so different from Bill Stump´s example. The non-cut out swaz vs. cut out swaz neglected, of course. But that could have many reasons.
S&L has a very specific catch on their EK1s. Actually seeing that the whole setup is textbook EK1 S&L hardware and the fact that the photograph/line drawing mixture of the catalogue is in fact not very off, makes me seriously wonder if that´s not a S&L.

Of course the S&L image is not a photograph, but S&L catalogue images have been remarked in in the past for the fact that they have picked up just about every nuance in the design of the actual badge. Rick Lundström can testify to this having done some specific comparisons between their catalogue illustrations and the actual awards.
So to accept this as an S&L badge solely on the basis of the retaining clip (you can ignore the pin as a determining factor because the zinker has the same type of pin and the zinker is different to Bills badge ergo they can't both be S&L so the pin is not relevant) you have to assume that despite the high accuracy of Steinhauer illustrations, when it came to the U-Boat badge they then got it wrong, showing the solid swas as a cut-out and then even drawing in a bit of the pin which would be visible through the gaps, getting other features right, then getting the alignment of the oakleaf central rib wrong. All this based on one feature, the retaining clip which was almost certainly something S&L bought in from an external contractor (if they had their own tooling for the pins I'm sure they wouldn't have needed to change their pin style postwar when stocks of wartime pins ran out). As Tom alluded to, if someone provided S&L with the badge "furniture" they could have supplied to others too. There isn't enough evidence that this style was unique to S&L.

Don't get me wrong, I'd really love this to be an S&L badge. I've been looking for one for some time now and have seen several like Bill's. If this is S&L it will make it very easy for me to fill a gap in my collection.

The S&L catalogue illustration is similar to Bill's (but as someone said recently "In this hobby similar is never enough" ). Whilst I really would like this to be an S&L badge, but I just don't accept that the catalogue illustration would be so far out (why would the alignment of the central rib of just that one leaf change ?)

I suspect Bill as an ex-detective would also like a bit more in the way of evidence before concluding that his badge is S&L when it flies in the face of the evidence we do have, allbeit the evidence is an illustration rather than a photo.

[Frank Heukemes]

Fair enough Gordon, I just did not want the badge to be excluded of the possibility to be a S&L, when some things for me point strongly towards S&L.
I just cannot believe that this catalogue drawing is so accurate. Look at the swastika, seriously tilted to the left out of symmetry. Also look at the spaces in between the swaz arms, left side arm, right side arm as an example. Pretty different space sizes. The cut out versus non cut out swaz is not the big deal for me, since other makers of the U-Boat also have cut out and noncut out variants of their designs.

"Similar is never enough" goes for comparisons of 3D matter (or at least good photographs of those), not drawings. In my opinion the drawing is not 100% accurate but similar enough to Bill´s badge. It is generally the same design, not something like a totally different fo or L/56 design.

I am sure we will live to see this puzzle solved, I also have my eye on it now.

[Frank Heukemes]

Tom, I do see that keel thing and you are right, very different to the one in the line drawing. I absolutely admit that.

[Gordon Williamson]

Fair enough Gordon, I just did not want the badge to be excluded of the possibility to be a S&L, when some things for me point strongly towards S&L.

I'd never absolutely rule out the possibility, but it still wouldn't explain the movement of that central rib on the badge as compared with the illustration. There are other differences too. The entire shape of the submarine hull is different, much deeper in Bill's badge than the S&L catalogue, also the gap between the front of the magnetic compass housing and the deck gun is different.

On the other hand- we still haven't addressed the issue that the zinkers previously thought of as late war unmarked zinc Schwerins clearly cannot have come from the same die as the tombak Schwerin badge, and in fact do match virtually all of the characteristics identifiable from the S&L catalogue.

[rhudspith]

Schwerin Zinker

Has anyone got a nice definitive Schwerin Zinker, can you show some good photos?

Bill I believe you had one in a box that you emailed me some photos some time ago. Can you post some good closeups of this

Regards
Rob

[W. C. Stump]

Has anyone got a nice definitive Schwerin Zinker, can you show some good photos?

Bill I believe you had one in a box that you emailed me some photos some time ago. Can you post some good closeups of this

Regards
Rob

Sorry, but I don't have it anymore.