Deschler versus Deumer U-boat badges

[EK-collector]

This thread is to identify the differences between Deschler and Deumer U-boat badges. Is the badge posted by János below a Deschler?

Thanks.

[Hans Kondor]

I post the pictures for you:

[Hans Kondor]

..

[Norm F]

I'm not aware of a Deschler connection. I would have said a zinc Deumer without the cutouts in the Hakenkreuz and under the gun. Admittedly the shape of the catch seems a little bit different from the usual Deumers, but that could be a random hand finishing effect?

Wait for others, quite possibly there's something I don't know about.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Here is the dealer description:

A zinc based example of the Submarine War Badge. The badge in a slightly worn condition. The gold all present but faded to a light yellow colour.

Not marked but a known variation that has been attributed to the maker Deschler & Sohn from Munich.

Typical construction. The hinge has been cleanly reattached(!) at some point in time.

Available with expertise for the price of 10, - Euro.

Well, it is a period badge but save yourself the 10 Euros. It is not a Deschler and probably a mistaken description. Also, IMO, the hinge is just suffering from zinc pest and was not reattached, at least from the photos. Maybe in hand he can see something else. The hinge was soldered to the badge when made and we are just seeing that solder reacting with the zinc.

John

[John R.]

Lack of cutouts as Norm pointed out may just be that some of these badges were finished in this manner.

John

[John R.]

Another thread with a similar badges:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=deschler

Bottom line, we do not know who made this badge but it is considered to be a period piece.

[EK-collector]

Many thanks for your opinions guys ! Do you think it is worthy of 240 Eur ?

[Norm F]

I think generally they're a pretty good dealer, but no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes, especially if they have to know a bit about everything instead of having a narrow focus like some of us collectors. Could even be simply a typo, "Deschler" for "Deumer"?

That's why as John R. has often said, if it's an expensive item outside your area of expertise it's best to run it by the forum first, no matter who is selling it.

As far as value goes, that's always a moving target, but probably that's about the going rate on dealers' sites. John T. just sold a similar badge but with less gilding on his site for 295 U.S. By the way, in my opinion, a COA is of no value to a collector, and is potentially useful only for insurance purposes.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

The example from John T.'s site also lacked the cutouts. I just assumed that was a difference in hand trimming.

Of course the attribution to Deumer is only based upon:
a) the hardware (which nevertheless is used by others on different badges) and
b) the cutout versions found in Deumer envelopes.

Cheers.
---Norm

[John R.]

Well, we have several issues going on here.

First, the old Deschler argument concerning a particular type of U-boat badge that came out a number of years ago. One (the one in the middle) also sold apparently from an ebay seller in India--hardly a good sign.

I never liked it mainly since one of the badges looked brand new. Others did including Gordon Williamson, Frank H. and a number of others experienced in this hobby area.

Still, I did not and do not like it. We have not seen any since as far as I know.

It did not show up in Gordon's Torpedo Los I might add, but not every badge did of course.

The link to Deschler was evident, the hinge, catch and pin.

Here are the badges and to be clear, this is not the same badge style as the one at the top of this thread.

In the end, with the so called Deschler badge, if you like it fine, and if not, that is OK too. Up to the collector.

Here it is:

[John R.]

The second issue is the so called Deumer badge. It appears identical with solid and cutout features. I think the overall look is the same. The key here is the eagle head I think which looks the same for the Deumer attributed badges.

The "Deumer" badge does not look like the Deschler badge in any respect as far as I can see so even if you thought the Deschler badge was period it is not the same as the "Deumer" badge at the top being offered for sale now by MS.

[John R.]

The third issue is that I do not personally believe Deumer made the badge, with or without cutouts, at the top of this thread.

As I have stated, and you can find with a search, I believe Deumer made the "Hymenn like" U-boat badge for all the reasons listed.

I have no idea who made the badge at the top or the "Deschler" claimed badge either and I personally do not own either of them although they might either, or both, be period badges.

Also remember that for years the so called Deumer example was claimed to be an unmarked Schwerin.

John

[Norm F]

Hi John,

You've covered a lot of territory!

I'd like to make some comments on the two main topics of this thread - i.e. the two different zinc U-boat badges that brought up the name "Deschler".

Firstly, regarding the badge that opened this thread, I believe it to be a good zinc U-boat badge most likely by the same maker as the cutout version that has been traditionally attributed to Deumer on the basis of hardware and packaging. It carries no connection to Deschler as far as I'm concerned, and I think we can chalk up that confusion to a misunderstanding or error.

I agree that the tombak Hymmen-like badges are almost certainly attributable to Deumer on the previously discussed bases of hardware and their appearance in the Deumer catalogue. But that doesn't preclude the zincers from also being by Deumer. There is no zinc version of the Hymmen-like Deumer badge, and no good reason for Deumer to stop U-boat production after the switch to zinc. I would suggest that, for whatever reason, the dies used for Deumer's tombak were not suitable for zinc production (possibly technical and possible their massiveness in a time of economy of material). Therefore, Deumer gets the new lighter Schwerin-like design for his zincer, possibly even purchased from Schwerin as an economy measure rather than producing his own die. Certainly the precedent has been set by B.H. Mayer for which we see marked tombak U-boats of one design and then a completely different marked zinc U-boat design.

(Comments on the next U-boat design of this thread with the "Deschler-like" pin to follow in the next message.)

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Quite right Norm. The Hymenn-like badge I attribute to Deumer is only in tombak so I stand corrected. The zinc Deumer could be made by Deumer of course.

John