Kriegsmarine Minesweeper's Abzeichen

[Martin Harding]

Who is the maker of this KM Badge?
Hello guys, opinions appreciated on this KM Badge. Although there is no maker mark, in hand the details are exceptional, it appears to be tombak, not zinc construction. One of the swastika recess has a metal wedge (I guess an attemp at de nazification so to avoid damaging the Badge) This would remove although as yet I have left it. It is also in hand an extremely well vaulted example.
Regards Martin

[Martin Harding]

Minensucher Kriegsabzeichen

MINENSUCHER KRIEGSABZEICHEN

OBVERSE

[Martin W]

Hi Martin,

from the reverse set-up it looks like a tombak example by BH Mayer.
Nice one.

Regards,Martin.

[Mike Kenny]

Hi Martin,

The obverse pic is imo not good enough to be able to state with 100% certainty that the design is Mayer - it seems to be a pretty good match but there may be some differences in some details. The hinge and pin certainly look like Mayer but the catch looks like it has a full length base to it - more like S&L than Mayer. So for me, based on the pics, I'd say a 90% chance of being a Mayer.

Regards
Mike

[Martin Harding]

Hello Martin & Mike, thank you for the information. Much appreciated. Here is apicture that might help to identify the Maker

[Martin Harding]

Km

Hello, so it is S & L not a Mayer then? does the above picture help with identification?
Regards Martin

[John R.]

Martin,

As is the case with so many of these unmarked minesweeper and coastal artillery badges, it becomes hard to say for sure just who made it. The important fact is that it is period and IMO it is period.

Unfortunately, many of the images have been deleted of Mayer badges from the forum over the years, which is why I wanted to get as many posted in my thread at the top to preserve images from being deleted as best as possible.

I note very few people have added images to that thread. This is too bad, but you can still use the search function and find examples that are still in the memory bank.

Anyway, although it is not a 100% match based on slight differences with the catch (and maybe the pin, but hard to say from the images), Mike I think is correct, Mayer if you had to choose. Not SandL but post examples of SandL if you have them.

However, you can't ever be completely sure on this one and to me, it is not a big deal. If it is important to a collector, then they should wait and buy marked badges or unmarked badges that we have extensive records with which to compare and there are plenty across the badge spectrum.

For example, the unmarked Schwerin Berlin U-boat badge is well documented and no doubt what it is. I think it is 99.8% as good as a marked one which is why I have one. Same with many other U-boat badges, but, when it comes to minesweepers and coastal artillery, it can get really hard to make that definitive call and as this forum loses so many of the old collectors, it is best to listen to guys like Mike, Martin and the others that have been around for a while and still posting. Do not go by the number of posts, that is for sure.

I have attached Tim Balls nice example that is a close one to yours and an accepted Mayer due to meeting all of the reverse hardware "requirements" based on marked badges of this type and others.

It just gets very hard with many unmarked badges, especially the zinc types, but tombak also.

Hope I did not confuse you too much.

John

[Martin Harding]

Hello John, Sorry I did not reply sooner as I have only just noticed the post. Thank you for the information it is much appreciated. And Yes certainly it has the characteristics of a Mayer and now I am content to be 99.9% sure it is. The catch & pin assembly to the one the picture you posted is identical to my example. Again many thanks for the input
Regards Martin

[Tim B.]

Hi John/Martin,

Though the die characteristics are very close, it is interesting that Martin's badge has a style catch that is rounded on top (similar to those we attribute to Duemer/FLL and other Ludenshield makers) and not the flattened top the B.H. Mayer (Pforzheim) badges usually have.

I would like to see better PICS of the catch and badge straight on to be sure, but like John stated above, the originality of a piece is what really matters here.
Tim

[John R.]

Hi John/Martin,

Though the die characteristics are very close, it is interesting that Martin's badge has a style catch that is rounded on top (similar to those we attribute to Duemer/FLL and other Ludenshield makers) and not the flattened top the B.H. Mayer (Pforzheim) badges usually have.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Good observation. For the others though, can you explain what you mean by the Pforzheim and Ludenshield makers and who they were?

Thanks, John

[Laurence Strong]

Pforzheim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pforzheim

Foerster & Barth
B H Mayers


Lüdenscheid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCdenscheid

Assmann & Sohne
Hymmen & Co


Hope this helps a bit

[Peter J.]

The hinge on Martin's badge is not identical to Tim's from what I can see.

When the "Russian Hoard" with EK's (26) was found, they all featured the folded type of hinge seen on Tim's badge. I've always found this type controversial, as they are often found on post-war fakes. I brought forward the question on the GCA, if there were any other specific badges that featured this hinge. The response was the Deschler KVK, which also happened to be a recent "hoard find". It's been suggested that Martin's badge might be a Mayer, if that's correct Mayer used two types of hinges for the same type of badge. Are there any other manufacturers apart from Deschler and Mayer who used the folded type of hinge?

cheers
Peter

[John R.]

The folded hinge is used all the time with KM badges. Are you saying that all folded hinges are suspicious to you? Beco, RS, a number of others all have it to my eye with the MS badge.

In regards to Tim's Mayer, I think we need to discuss this a bit. In my mind, it is a period badge based on the hardware, but lets look at it a bit. However, it is true, I do not think we have ever 100% been able to pin who made that badge down. I do not think it is a reproduction based on the look of the badge though. To me, 100% original, but perhaps unknown.

Do we have Mayer marked MS badges in tombak '26' or 'L/18' with which to compare? I have posted on GMIC for one, I know one of the members has one, but there are no images of this badge, marked, that I have access to at this point.

Does anybody else?

John

[Peter J.]

Hi John,

I'm sorry if I was vague, I was referring to the hinge shown on the enclosed scan. It's a post-war fake by Souval with an incused L/58. I've never seen this type of hinge on any wartime Souval pieces, perhaps you can direct me to a link with an image (tried a search on MS and Beco ).

cheers
Peter

[John R.]

I just compared Tim's badge to the badges posted by Erik Krogh.

Looks the same and a match for Mayer.