Metallic thread cloth U Boot badges

[Richard]

What is the general opinion of U Boot badges such as this, which were made from metallic threads. I've also seen some a bit different than these with a bevo type weave and a MM on the edge.
Richard V

[Jody]

Cloth U-boat badge

Hi Richard,
I don't like these at all. They used to be sold as fakes in the 70's. The only cloth version I personally trust are the embroidered ones. Please read this thread that was about these badges some time ago: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+U-boat+badges

Here is the embroidered type in my collection (that I trust).

Regards,
Jody

Obverse:

[Jody]

Cloth U-boat badge

Reverse:

[colin davie]

I had one of these I bought for £20 and sold it for E150 after Huss offered one for E300 because of what was said in this thread...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=36437

This thread I provide says the K.E.E.N. badges are good, the thread noted above says they are the bad ones.

Maybe best you pays your money and makes your own choice.
C

[Richard]

Thanks for the links gentlemen. Seems a bit of a confusing subject. Seems a bit controversial. One only has to think back to the Russian hord EK1s that were first deemed fake and now are accepted as original to find but one example of something disputed that is now accepted. I find it interesting that the metallic thread badges look vastly superior to the woven type. I think I also have one of these somewhere in the depths of one of my boxes and will have to see what it looks like and if it passes a burn test. I suppose until proof comes out that they were or were not produced prior to 1945, the jury will remain out on these. Despite the fact several maintain that they are outright fakes, I would never discount the fact that fakes might have been made based on a limited number of originals. Perhaps time will tell and perhaps not. If not, I suppose these will remain a bit on the controversial side. Thanks again for the info.
Richard V

[colin davie]

Weitze has one for sale in his new items this week.

Thomas Huss, Gordon Williamson (though I don't believe Gordon actually likes them) and Weitze are pretty big names in KM collecting, but Jody and the other guys sure have some good experience, I think the jury will always be out because a photo of one in wear would be hard to find if they are indeed genuine and obviously if they are fantasy items (can't be fakes unless they are copying something genuine ) it would be impossible. As long as you don't pay too much, not much harm done either way, key is just not to pay too much.
C

p.s. quick edit to remark that the one at Weitze's is Euro250.

[Terrence]

I paid $5 for mine. They are not period.

T

[colin davie]

Thanks Terrance, can you post a pic. of your one you paid $5 for?
Would be helpful if you can tell us where you bought it too, I will buy some more for $5
C

[Terrence]

Hey Colin,

It is the same as the one you posted. Got it on the e-stand.

T

[Jody]

Cloth U-boat badge

Thanks Terrance, can you post a pic. of your one you paid $5 for?
Would be helpful if you can tell us where you bought it too, I will buy some more for $5
C

Hi Colin,
When I was a kid you could buy them for around $5 day and night from Unique Imports.

Here is one of their adds.

Regards,
Jody

[tgn]

I can't believe anybody still thinks these are original. These have long ago been dismissed as fakes. But, like they (who is "they", anyways?) say, what was fake when we first started collecting is now accepted as genuine. It is all a matter of time...Tom

[colin davie]

It's ok with me, I don't own one, Gordon said the KEEN marked badges were original, Huss sold one and Weitze is selling one, just brought that up for the guy who asked.
C
p.s. Terrance on the thread I posted above you also posted after Gordon said KEEN were original.. maybe you and others could have saved some people some money if you'd mentioned it back then.

[Jody]

It's ok with me, I don't own one, Gordon said the KEEN marked badges were original, Huss sold one and Weitze is selling one, just brought that up for the guy who asked.
C
p.s. Terrance on the thread I posted above you also posted after Gordon said KEEN were original.. maybe you and others could have saved some people some money if you'd mentioned it back then.

Hello,
If you go to this link and read thread #18, you can see that I mentioned that the example I bought from Unique Imports as a fake was also marked KEEN. http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+U-boat+badges

I repsect the opinion of Gordon and Thomas very much. It will still take a lot more to convince me of these things. I guess I still remember seeing these things all over the place in the 70's and at the time they were sold as fakes (for the most part) for a few dollars.

I also remember a dealer from the Tucson, AZ area that had a huge roll of these things for sale at the AZ gunshows.

Regards,
Jody

[Terrence]

It's ok with me, I don't own one, Gordon said the KEEN marked badges were original, Huss sold one and Weitze is selling one, just brought that up for the guy who asked.
C
p.s. Terrance on the thread I posted above you also posted after Gordon said KEEN were original.. maybe you and others could have saved some people some money if you'd mentioned it back then.

These woven badges have been known to be fake for so long and continue to be posted as "genuine" every few months by the unknowing. They have been discussed many times on the forum. I would love to read the evidence Gordon has to support his speculation.

Best regards,
Terrence

[colin davie]

Jody mentioned in one of the previous threads about being stubborn in regard to him calling these badges copies, I think rather than my being stubborn about them being possibly genuine is that greatest misnomer in the history of mankind..common sense.

In any civilized lawful society innocence is assumed until proven guilty, however in these hobbies it is thru necessity the other way around, and while we are paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for these items no-one can complain of that logic.. in the absence of a smoking gun we have to take what evidence we have and try our best.

These badges did not materialize out of thin air, they were woven by a machine, the questions are when and by whom.

Let's assume they are indeed post war, and you reading this post have access to this great weaving machine that can copy such an intricate design as this U-Boat badge in such a very convincing manner in 1970.

What would you do? Please ask yourself.. what would you do?

If, like myself, you are a normal thinking person there would be beautiful woven U-Boat, Destroyer, High Seas, E-Boat, the 3 different flak badges, CCC, IABs GABs, wound badges, sports badges, horse riding badges.. blah blah... you get the point. Every 3rd reich badge in existance would be available to collect in this woven form, plus all the insignia too.

Thankfully for us the guy that had this technology available to him was apparently the recipient of a lobotomy, because he only made the one badge.. the U-Boat one. We know that because there are no other KM badges in this style.

Perhaps he was being clever and trying to keep from flooding the market, pretend they are real.. nope BozoBoy sells the whole lot on big rolls to the biggest seller of copies in the US. Pure genius.

It does not make sense to me that these are copies.. because no-one with access to this machine would be stupid enough to only make one type of badge and then sell it to the biggest seller of repros in the USA...IMO

Jody however knows this seller of copies DID have these badges in the 70's, the only possible explaination I can think of might answer the puzzle, I don't know for sure because I don't know the seller of the repros.

In the UK, the biggest seller of re-enactor material is Nicholas Morigi, and 99% of what he sells are indeed copies, but he has contacts all over Europe and occasionally manages to pick up some original material, usually un-issued.. these items he sells at a premium, but still fairly cheap.

It is not unthinkable that this US seller also had contacts all over Europe in the 70's in fact it is almost certain he did, we take these contacts for granted because of the internet, but back then it was rare to have such contacts.. very rare.

It is again not unthinkable that an 11 year old boy buying from Morigi today might assume that what he bought was a copy, being unaware of the 1% of real material he also sells. Perhaps this seller of repros in the US also sold original material on occasion? I don't know, but it might make sense. And yes most dealers in the UK buy from Morigi with such original items when he gets them, so they would be all over the place at shows etc. $5 was an ok amount in 1970.. a time when EK2 would not be much more.

I don't know, opinion only like everyone else.. these discussions are however very educational, for example in trying to discover the value of $5 in todays money I learned $1 Was Worth 4 Venezuelan Bolivars in 1970s. I am most grateful, hopefully I will forget it soon.
C