"First, I am new to this forum, but I was directed here to get some questions answered because I am doing some research on the 17th SS GVB Division because it fought against my great uncle's unit during WW2. I recently acquired an entire foot locker worth of stuff my his daughter while she was cleaning his up getting ready to sell. Have a few badges, cuff title for GvB, some medals, etc.-Just trying to organize it all.
I have looked over the numerous forum postings on this site regarding PZGrenadiers and still have some questions because "I think it depends on what stage of the war the badge was actually issued". Finally, thanks for your time."
1) "What Assault Badge would a Pz.G. member earn if a member of the above division during the late war?
2) If a Recce Battalion Member of the 17th Waffen SS GvB- would it be the IAB-Bronze, PAB-Bronze, or GAB?
3) If the Soldier was a PzG and not Recce, could he have earned just the GAB or PAB-Bronze or just the standard IAB-BRONZE?
I saw a posting on the forums here and I am still confused. The internet seems to be confusing also. From what information that I have it could any of the three. I know the 17th SS was refitted numerous times towards 1944-1945."
Finally, here is what I found:
PAB-BRONZE-I am still confused because I found this...The Wehrmacht Tank Battle badge was introduced on December 20, 1939, in order to recognize the achievements of Panzer personnel who took part in armored assaults. It was designed by Ernst Peekhaus of Berlin, and was instituted by order of Generaloberst von Brauchitsh. On June 6th, 1940, a separate class of the badge, in Bronze, was added in order to recognize the crews of armored vehicles other than tanks (half tracks, assault guns [I thought this was a GAB], etc).
As mentioned above, the Silver class was presented to tank commanders, gunners or radio operators while the bronze class was presented to the Panzer-Grenadier regiments, tank assault crew, armored recon units, and medical personnel who went into battle in armored vehicles.
IAB-BRONZE- A separate class, in Bronze, was instituted on June 1, 1940. The Bronzed class had criteria similar to the requirements the Silver. There was, however, one notable distinction; The status of the troops, bronzed meant motorized Panzer troops, silver meant foot infantry.
BRONZE AWARD:
To have taken part in three or more motorized infantry assaults.
To have taken part in three or more motorized infantry counter-attacks.
To have taken part in three or more motorized armed reconnaissance operations.
To have been engaged in hand to hand combat in motorized assault positions.
To have participated on three separate days, in the restitution of a motorized combat position.
The attacks had to take place on different days, in the event that they took place on one day only one "credit" was earned.
So I guess the question is: "Since I am inquiring about the 17th SS PzGren. Division from 1944-1945 (late war), what would the Armored Recce Earn and what would the Actualy Panzer Grenadiers Earn?
This German reference states the following: (on the Algemeines Sturmabzeichen)
Bereits während des Polenfeldzugs im September 1939 erkannte das Oberkommando des Heeres, dass es zwingend notwendig war, dem bisherigen Infanterie-Sturmabzeichen ein weiteres Sturmabzeichen hinzuzufügen. Während das Infanterie-Sturmabzeichen nur für unmotorisierte Schützen und Gebirgsjäger in Frage kam, sollten mit dem (allgemeinen) Sturmabzeichen alle anderen Waffengattungen, (beispielsweise Sturmartillerie oder Pioniere) sofern sie mit der Infanterie und Panzerkräften gemeinsam im Kampf standen, gewürdigt werden.
Finally, I am assuming that it could just be based upon what was recommended. I have seen photos of Waffen SS infantrymen with a GAB. Sorry for the confusion, but I am confused.
Thanks everyone who has taken the time to review this.
I have looked over the numerous forum postings on this site regarding PZGrenadiers and still have some questions because "I think it depends on what stage of the war the badge was actually issued". Finally, thanks for your time."
1) "What Assault Badge would a Pz.G. member earn if a member of the above division during the late war?
2) If a Recce Battalion Member of the 17th Waffen SS GvB- would it be the IAB-Bronze, PAB-Bronze, or GAB?
3) If the Soldier was a PzG and not Recce, could he have earned just the GAB or PAB-Bronze or just the standard IAB-BRONZE?
I saw a posting on the forums here and I am still confused. The internet seems to be confusing also. From what information that I have it could any of the three. I know the 17th SS was refitted numerous times towards 1944-1945."
Finally, here is what I found:
PAB-BRONZE-I am still confused because I found this...The Wehrmacht Tank Battle badge was introduced on December 20, 1939, in order to recognize the achievements of Panzer personnel who took part in armored assaults. It was designed by Ernst Peekhaus of Berlin, and was instituted by order of Generaloberst von Brauchitsh. On June 6th, 1940, a separate class of the badge, in Bronze, was added in order to recognize the crews of armored vehicles other than tanks (half tracks, assault guns [I thought this was a GAB], etc).
As mentioned above, the Silver class was presented to tank commanders, gunners or radio operators while the bronze class was presented to the Panzer-Grenadier regiments, tank assault crew, armored recon units, and medical personnel who went into battle in armored vehicles.
IAB-BRONZE- A separate class, in Bronze, was instituted on June 1, 1940. The Bronzed class had criteria similar to the requirements the Silver. There was, however, one notable distinction; The status of the troops, bronzed meant motorized Panzer troops, silver meant foot infantry.
BRONZE AWARD:
To have taken part in three or more motorized infantry assaults.
To have taken part in three or more motorized infantry counter-attacks.
To have taken part in three or more motorized armed reconnaissance operations.
To have been engaged in hand to hand combat in motorized assault positions.
To have participated on three separate days, in the restitution of a motorized combat position.
The attacks had to take place on different days, in the event that they took place on one day only one "credit" was earned.
So I guess the question is: "Since I am inquiring about the 17th SS PzGren. Division from 1944-1945 (late war), what would the Armored Recce Earn and what would the Actualy Panzer Grenadiers Earn?
This German reference states the following: (on the Algemeines Sturmabzeichen)
Bereits während des Polenfeldzugs im September 1939 erkannte das Oberkommando des Heeres, dass es zwingend notwendig war, dem bisherigen Infanterie-Sturmabzeichen ein weiteres Sturmabzeichen hinzuzufügen. Während das Infanterie-Sturmabzeichen nur für unmotorisierte Schützen und Gebirgsjäger in Frage kam, sollten mit dem (allgemeinen) Sturmabzeichen alle anderen Waffengattungen, (beispielsweise Sturmartillerie oder Pioniere) sofern sie mit der Infanterie und Panzerkräften gemeinsam im Kampf standen, gewürdigt werden.
Finally, I am assuming that it could just be based upon what was recommended. I have seen photos of Waffen SS infantrymen with a GAB. Sorry for the confusion, but I am confused.
Thanks everyone who has taken the time to review this.