Honor Clasps of the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS

[Ноnоr]

I did some research on the Juncker cartons and as I understood there are only a few known (accepted) original variants of "Juncker"-marked cartons (for KC and EK). Three of them are in the collage below: two different styles of KC outer carton and one for EK1. The shown (three original) cartons have different fonts, text alignment and spacing. But the font used on the LW Honor Clasp carton is pretty close (in fact almost identical) to the font on one of the KC outer cartons, just different spacing between words (spacing between letters is the same). Visually, they look fine together IMO but I am not an expert so it would be great if more experienced collectors shared their thought.





All I can say about the LW Honor clasp carton is that the dimensions of the carton are correct for the LW Honor Clasp presentation case. I compared them in Photoshop (picture below) with the known dimensions of the KC carton (from Marcus Hatton) and the LW Honor Clasp presentation case (from here), as can be seen in the picture, the word "Juncker" on both cartons matches in length.

[Ноnоr]

In the picture below I combined the text on the LW Honor clasp carton with the text on the accepted original Juncker Knight Cross cartons.

The first (on the very top) is the way the text appears on the LW Honor clasp carton.
Below (second from the top) it is the same text (on the LW Honor clasp carton) but with modified spacing between words so that the words are aligned with the variant on the Knight Cross cartons. Only the spacing between words has been reduced; the spacing between letters has not been modified and is the same as appears on the LW Honor clasp carton.

Pictures are a bit blurry (it's all we have) but the words appears very, very similar (almost match I would say for 97%).

[Ноnоr]

Dale, I completely agree with you. The marks on their prongs (dents from a tool) are a very distinctive future and if we could find some award with the same marks (of known maker), the maker of the Honor clasps can be identified pretty easily. Great idea! Because while there are millions of prongs on all kinds of metal items (from shoulder board devices to cap metal insignia), there are hardly ever any marks on them, let alone the same (or just similar) dents from a tool (as on the Honor clasps). I will most definitely use your advice. Thank you!

It looks a bit familiar

[Ноnоr]

One more

[Ноnоr]

Just found a very interesting piece of relevant information that completely clears things up for me.

[Ноnоr]

As a conclusion to our investigation/research/analysis:

1. The so-called “Unknown Maker” in this thread is C.E. Juncker.
2. All Honor clasps reviewed in this thread are original and have been made by C.E. Juncker, including the Honor Clasp of Army (both variants: two-piece-construction and one-piece construction), the Honor Clasp of Luftwaffe, and the the Honor Clasp of Kriegsmarine.

Thank you This thread was fun !

[Norm F]

Thank you This thread was fun !

And I think it's not over. A very exciting presentation, Honor. Thanks very much.

The ridged round-wire prongs on the Kriegsmarine clasp are equally distinctive and yet mysteriously different from ridged flat-wire prongs. Perhaps there's more to discover about these ridged round-wire prongs from other awards?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Ноnоr]

And I think it's not over. A very exciting presentation, Honor. Thanks very much.

The ridged round-wire prongs on the Kriegsmarine clasp are equally distinctive and yet mysteriously different from ridged flat-wire prongs. Perhaps there's more to discover about these ridged round-wire prongs from other awards?

Best regards,
---Norm

Glad you liked it Norm
Indeed it is over to me already because all is clear. Different type of prongs is just different type of prongs. For example, these clasps are made of different materials too. Nothing mysterious either. Just different materials. We needed to find the same distinctive marks (that are on flat prongs) on any Juncker award and we found it. We needed it because we had a Honor clasp carton with Junker name on it. And while looking for marks on Juncker prongs (as an evidence that all Honor clasps that have these marks were made by Junker), we found the statement from the book that Junker did make Honor clasps. Instantly cleaned up all my questions. Because we came to believe that Junker made Honor clasps from a completely different way, independently on our own, no one and no book told us about Junker, our investigation has lead us to it. Suddenly we find that the same thing is told in a book - Junker did made clasps.
Everything else on this subject would be just another redundancy, which I already put more than enough in this thread. All was clear to me with two-three findings/observations. There was no really need to list them all. I did that "only in case" if obvious reasons wouldn't be enough

[Norm F]

We needed to find the same distinctive marks (that are on flat prongs) on any Juncker award and we found it. We needed it because we had a Honor clasp carton with Junker name on it. And while looking for marks on Juncker prongs (as an evidence that all Honor clasps that have these marks were made by Junker), we found the statement from the book that Junker did make Honor clasps.

Hi Honor,

I'm a big fan of the forensic study of awards and of your excellent presentation so please don't take it as criticism if I comment on a few details. You do an excellent job of linking to Juncker with your study of the cardboard carton and the flat pins. My only points (tests of rigour) to add are:

1) "the statement from the book" needs more corroboration as a reference. Whose book and what is the quality of evidence presented to support that statement at the time? Otherwise it adds no additional weight to your otherwise excellent presentation.

2) The notched flat pins that you show on the "Juncker" EK2 Spange to be fair are on an unmarked example. The L/12 marked clasp shown here is from a different die and has very different pins. It would a more powerful comparator if you could find an L/12 marked clasp with those pins to satisfy those who might claim that the unmarked Spangen are by a different maker or a subcontractor.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Your compilation of examples of the KM clasp allows another observation. The ones you called the "full-design version" are probably better described as the "hand trimmed" version whereas the one you called the "cut-design version" appears to use a labour-saving trimming stamp resulting in much more consistency in the internal margins. I would suggest the hand-trimmed version is likely the earlier of the two in the timeline.

The same would apply to the two trimming variations of the Heer clasp.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Stepdale]

Honor,
I think you'd do well to throw up a thread in the cross section linking to the last page of this thread. Those guys can really help in looking at Juncker spangen. I'm on vacation now operating off of an ancient computer or I'd search for you, but I believe even with the best computer in my hands, your skills far outshine my disabilities!
Dale

[Norm F]

The ones you called the "full-design version" are probably better described as the "hand trimmed" version whereas the one you called the "cut-design version" appears to use a labour-saving trimming stamp resulting in much more consistency in the internal margins. I would suggest the hand-trimmed version is likely the earlier of the two in the timeline.

The same evolution is seen in the Juncker-attributed U-Boat badge, from hand-trimmed margins to the use of a standard trimming stamp (although presumably in earlier wartime). I took the liberty of labelling your previous comparison of the two Heer clasps in the same manner to illustrate the point.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Ноnоr]

1) "the statement from the book" needs more corroboration as a reference. Whose book and what is the quality of evidence presented to support that statement at the time? Otherwise it adds no additional weight to your otherwise excellent presentation.

---Norm

Thank you for your input, Norm and Dale

I just sent a request for this to Mr. Stan. He posted the same comment about Juncker Honor clasps here too in 2007 http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...56#post2272456

2) The notched flat pins that you show on the "Juncker" EK2 Spange to be fair are on an unmarked example. The L/12 marked clasp shown here is from a different die and has very different pins. It would a more powerful comparator if you could find an L/12 marked clasp with those pins to satisfy those who might claim that the unmarked Spangen are by a different maker or a subcontractor.
---Norm

I think you'd do well to throw up a thread in the cross section linking to the last page of this thread. Those guys can really help in looking at Juncker spangen. Dale

The fisrt Juncker EK2 clasp that I posted has been found on this forum (WAF) with s but I will follow Dale(Stepdale)'s advise and "throw up a thread in the cross section linking to the last page of this thread" for additional examples.

[Norm F]

The first Juncker EK2 clasp that I posted has been found on this forum (WAF) with s but I will follow Dale(Stepdale)'s advise and "throw up a thread in the cross section linking to the last page of this thread" for additional examples.

Hi Honor,

I don't at all doubt that the EK2 clasp you posted is a good one, nor that there is a logical rationale for a possible or probable attibution of it to Juncker. And relating the Honor clasp construction to the unmarked "Juncker-attributed" EK2 clasp is analogous to my comparison to the unmarked "Juncker-attributed" U-Boat badge.

But I'm merely pointing out that it's a more robust argument for collectors at large if the Honor clasp construction can be related to some other L/12 marked award. So far, the packaging that you showed for the Luftwaffe clasp is the most direct link.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Ноnоr]

Your compilation of examples of the KM clasp allows another observation. The ones you called the "full-design version" are probably better described as the "hand trimmed" version whereas the one you called the "cut-design version" appears to use a labour-saving trimming stamp resulting in much more consistency in the internal margins. I would suggest the hand-trimmed version is likely the earlier of the two in the timeline.

The same would apply to the two trimming variations of the Heer clasp.

Best regards,
---Norm

I agree with you, Norm, the internal margins of the Honor Roll clasps are very consistent and appear visually identical as if clasps had been trimmed by using a trimming stamp. It is hard to notice small differences between them in pictures with only side-by-side comparison. That's why I use the "projection-type" of comparison on my computer, where one picture is displayed on top of another picture while both pictures are perfectly visible. That makes any(even very slightest) difference in their shapes (lines, angles, curves, etc) much more apparent. I have spent a lot of time comparing these clasps, so I can assure you with confidence that all Honor Roll clasps have been trimmed by hand (beyond doubt) both "full-design-" and "cut-design" versions because there are differences in their internal margins.

BTW just received a response from Stan. He will provide more info on the book when he gets back home next week