Announcement

**Thomas Durante** · 08-10-2010, 08:53 AM

And one more for good measure, a retired pilot badge with the same hinge, but marked with a tiny L58 mark. Most collectors believe that ONLY Juncker made the Retired Pilot badge. This badge does NOT match any of the Juncker variants, but does that mean its a fake? Not necessarily, but the reverese hardware supports the notion that this was produced post war, likely in the 1950s or 1960s.

Tom

Attached Files

RP-L58 marked.jpg (73.7 KB, 372 views)

**Leroy** · 08-10-2010, 09:30 AM

In reviewing all this (including badges I have questioned myself), I think Tom's theory is a VERY valuable contribution to this hobby and explains a great many mysteries. There is, frankly, no doubt in my mind that it is correct.

The badges which had these pins attached were, IMO, assembled up to the mid-60's (at least) using original leftover planchets. After that, S&L commenced re-striking using its old dies in order to have a continuing supply of components, and continued to use both this pin type (which should be called the "early 1957 re-issue pin style") AND the "later 1957 re-issue pin style". I further believe, based on what I have been told, that most, if not all, of this production was "dealer-driven".

**Thomas Durante** · 08-10-2010, 09:30 AM

So you can see why I think the oval plate under the hinge is a post-war creation, and not found on textbook, wartime S&L badges.

But lets looks a little closer at the hinge block itself. I would also contend that the hingeblock itself is IDENTICAL to what was used by S&L on their 1957 badges. A sidebyside comparison with a 1957 Observer badge shows they are identical in every way in my opinion. This type of hinge is not found on wartime S&L badges. S&L IABs, PABs, GABs, CCCs, Flaks, etc. are all very common badges, yet we NEVER see this type of block hinge on their wartime badges. However, this type of hinge is almost ALWAYS used by S&L on their 1957 production badges.

So, that is why Chad's badge is "questionable" and doesn't really make sense as a wartime badge and something that we have often scratched our heads about for years and years. But now with the theory of the "1957 scrape", the answer becomes clear in my opinion.

If you look at it from the perspective of it being a leftover badge, that was put togther in 1957 or later for the souvenier trade, it makes PERFECT sense. I would contend that this badge was produced during the war, but remained as part of S&L's leftover stock at the end of the war. In the 1950s or 1960s, it had new hardware put onto it and sold. This scenario makes perfect sense, and fits the eye witness accounts that Leroy has been espousing for years, that S&L had a ton of leftover wartime stock, which was sometimes assembled in the post-war years by S&L workers to sell to the GIs or dealers. Its also why we find a badge like yours, which matches wartime S&L badges materials and die characteristics, but with weird reverse hardware and finish.

Tom

Attached Files

Chad Compare.JPG (127.6 KB, 367 views)

**speedytop** · 08-10-2010, 04:18 PM

Hi,

I know, that it is not the same needle, but is a tool mark on a very early St&L badge, made between 1948 and 1951:

And this is the same decoration, but another needle with another tool mark, same time period 1948 - 1951:

You can find on the same needles on other decorations from this time period each similar tool marks.

Please don't think, that you know now all about St&L

Uwe

**Thomas Durante** · 08-10-2010, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by speedytop View Post

Hi,

I know, that it is not the same needle

You are right, so you answered your own question

Tom

**Norman LaBarge** · 08-10-2010, 08:00 PM

Excellent work Tom. It gives us a great bit of information to increase our arsenal of knowledge to filter out post war produced badges.

**Jeff V** · 08-10-2010, 09:07 PM

I am sorry, I do not agree with this simplistic hypothesis. Here are some anti-partisan badges owned by Thomas Bendixen (I think) with the scratches on the pin, are they now fake? A couple of weeks ago they were thought to be made by Juncker and universally accepted as original and today due to the pin theory they are made by S&L and fake? It is not hard to find wartime badges with these scratches from the pin forming. Are they now all fake too? IMO it is very dangerous to focus ones attention on an item such as a mark on the pin to determine a badges originality. The whole piece must be considered. Tom means well with his research but I believe it is very dangerous to make these kind of assumptions.
Collectors seem to have gone crazy lately with all kinds of guesswork on what maker made what and where they were located meaning XYZ, and now everything hinges on a scratch on a pin. Last year Tom told us the postwar S&L badges could be determined by how wide the hinge was, what about that theory?
best wishes,
jeff

Attached Files

**Jeff V** · 08-10-2010, 09:14 PM

another

Attached Files

BKASmall2.jpg (98.8 KB, 345 views)

**Jeff V** · 08-10-2010, 09:16 PM

what about this one, attributed to a night fighter pilot, if I remember correctly

Attached Files

**Jeff V** · 08-10-2010, 09:17 PM

2

Attached Files

**Jeff V** · 08-10-2010, 09:18 PM

3

Attached Files

**Jeff V** · 08-10-2010, 09:19 PM

What about these?

Attached Files

**Jeff V** · 08-10-2010, 09:22 PM

2

Attached Files

**Jeff V** · 08-10-2010, 09:26 PM

PAB. Was this one made in the 60s

Attached Files

**Jeff V** · 08-10-2010, 09:32 PM

I don't have the answers to any of these questions, but it seems unlikely that S&L would have all of the components and equipment to make and finish these badges after the war but need a different machine to roll the pins into shape. That machine only did not survive the war. Anyway, there are way more badges with scratches in the pin than what I just showed. I believe something like this has to be taken with a grain of salt in comparison to the entire badge.
best wishes,
jeff

Announcement

Difference between Wartime & 1957 S&L badges

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread