Detlev Sold a Bronze Close Combat Clasp. . .

[Brian S]

Tim's pictures say it all, it'z zinc.

[mvm71]

It's nice to see people still looking for flaws in militaria even after it's been authenticated by "militaria gods". Thats why I have confidence in the members of this site because they continue to dig and research and point out diffferences of opinion. I'm also surprised in some respects because this particular seller should probably know the difference. I know everyone makes mistakes but this also has me asking the question, Is this seller deliberately trying to pull a fast one or not. I don't believe he was but it kind of shakes your confidence in him a bit because I believe that most collectors wouldn't question his opinion on most topics of collecting third reich militaria. I think that most buyers will now give his items an extra look when buying from this site in the future. I know thats almost impossible because most items of quality sell in about five minutes of the Friday morning update!

Anyway.....great debate and thanks to those hawks who keep a sharp eye out for us novices.
Thanks,
Mike

[Gene]

I like Detlev and managed to score some beauties from him, but he is not infallible (none of us are). A Forum member recently contacted me about a badge that he'd sent to Detlev for authenticating, and he gave it a thumbs-down (the badge in question is undeniably genuine WW2).

[Lorenzo Brown]

I know everyone makes mistakes but this also has me asking the question, Is this seller deliberately trying to pull a fast one or not. I don't believe he was but it kind of shakes your confidence ..."Mike

Hi Mike. It is only my opinion, but I believe that dealers make honest mistakes. One need only look at the vast array of items they sell and you can see that it would be almost impossible to scrutinize every item. I believe that many items are actually reviewed by their employees rather then themselves, which is not uncommon in any business.

In the case of Detlev and so many other dealers who KNOW that EVERY ITEM they sell will be published on the internet for us to review....it would be SUICIDE for them to intentionally try to "pull a fast one" in this cyberspace environment.

But it does show the importance of collectors learning about items for themselves and not relying on the opinions of others.

[Brian S]

And, he keeps photos of the items he sells up for a week which is more than I can say for some of the items sold on the eStand. Completely agree with Lorenzo.

[IVAN]

Hi guys,

As nearly always, when speak about Niemann's badges, in the end, the way go to speak of the person if reputable or not or something around him, and not to the badges........

I worry but unfortunately not one has gived to me a real reason to believe mine is in zinc , my knowledge is not better after this thread around my badge and the existence or not of CCC with material different of zinc.

I am always more convinced that mine , even if we can say is not in classic tombak pre-war alloy, is not in zinc.

Why is NOT possible in not zinc ccc have used these type of hinge, who say it? or in which fonts we can find it? Never hear about it.

It's not true that diagonal lines /// can find only in zinc badges, in cupal too, in many DK's in reverse side there are, look for example in these badges of Winkler's archives:
#2068 DK heavy type
#5076 IAB silver cupal reverse side
often in reverse side of Deschler's DK

Weight? not a good raison to say that if mine is heavy nearly the same of zinc types must be in zinc.........MAYBE IS IN CUPAL............CAN BE ..........cupal material is more light then heavy prewar tombak.


Badges showed in this thread have nothing to do with mine , for example Tim's badge you see traces of zinc under the plate, but not in mine , so why is it comparated with mine?

Anybody can show to me a badge , even from another award, like mine and declared zinc?

Well, I do THE CONTRARY, not enough to show pilot wreath? I show other badges I can say is very closed to mine(in material) where cannot see the copper (hope dealers can authorize to show them, thanks):

In Winkler Archive ( sorry but I am not able to copy pics):
#8504 pab in silver buntmetall obverse side
#2192 gab in silver buntmetall reverse side
#6841 clasp EKI in buntmetall reverse side
#5714 KVK 1 CLASSE with swords buntmetall reverse and obverse side

look this IAB from Weitze, presented as a badge in cupal , unfortunately I haven't the reverse,:

[IVAN]

here is another "in tombak"

Well, all these dealers can be wrong ?...............

[Paul Massucci]

Hi Mike. It is only my opinion, but I believe that dealers make honest mistakes. One need only look at the vast array of items they sell and you can see that it would be almost impossible to scrutinize every item. I believe that many items are actually reviewed by their employees rather then themselves, which is not uncommon in any business.

In the case of Detlev and so many other dealers who KNOW that EVERY ITEM they sell will be published on the internet for us to review....it would be SUICIDE for them to intentionally try to "pull a fast one" in this cyberspace environment.

But it does show the importance of collectors learning about items for themselves and not relying on the opinions of others.

Hi All ,
Lorenzo raises a couple of good points in his last post.

1) items are actually reviewed by their employees rather then themselves,

2)....it would be SUICIDE for them to intentionally try to "pull a fast one" in this cyberspace environment.

3)But it does show the importance of collectors learning about items for themselves and not relying on the opinions of others


And I believe #3 is the most important one. It's one thing to read postings here and reserch information and arriving at some level of comfortablity within oneself as to what is good or not. Which is why I never answer posts asking opinions of an item BEFORE it's purchased. For me the learning and self-confidance that comes with it is just as enjoyable if not more-so than having the item in my collection.
Have I've gotten "burned" sometimes-- YES but at least it was MY Mistake and I learned from it, plus there was always a retun policy which bailed me out. A couple of cases i'd like to share. Back in the good days(these examoles happening about 4 years ago) of ebay I was able to obtain a 100% good AP badge for $250 because I knew what to look for. On the opposite side I saw a good JFS CCC I wanted to get, well another member with the same intentions posted asking what others thought of this item complete with the link to the item, this had the immediate effect of having the item being made aware to many more buyers than there was with the end result is it cost me at least $100 more than the bid I originaly put in.

But enough of my ranting and back to the question in hand. I believe the terms tombak and buntmetal are used very spuriously alot of the times. The following is a pic of an TOMBAK HSF, where the original finish has been worn you can see the base metal has a very distinct yellow color, this is what worn TOMBAK should look like, noy a silever toned color.

[John T]

I like Detlev and managed to score some beauties from him, but he is not infallible (none of us are). A Forum member recently contacted me about a badge that he'd sent to Detlev for authenticating, and he gave it a thumbs-down (the badge in question is undeniably genuine WW2).

I have seen this happen also with regard to an abosolutely correct badge and that incident reminded me that we have to educate ourselves on forums such as this, by talking to other collectors and reading and not just take the word of experts.

[John T]

I am not sure if I have ever seen an authentic CCC in tomback, but I have seen quality repros that are made from a metal that is probably tomback or something similiar...ie definately not zinc. Also, I notice that the repro CCC's with the hook on top (I am not saying that real ones do not exist with the center hook on top) seem to be made from tomback or some other quality metal but certainly not zinc.

I know that some of the zinc CCC's really hold a superb finish and I could see that these could be confused for tomback but for me they appear to be made from zinc.

John

[Allan P.]

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[Allan P.]

Well, hopefully there is attached to this pictures of the CCC that started this thread off.

I have been experiencing real problems with posting pictures for over a week, so apologise for bringing this up again, especially if the pictures don't appear.

If the pictures do not appear, then perhaps I can email them to someone for posting.

As regards the price, well. simply its the £ v $ bought a bronze CCC from Detlev in December for the same price in £.

Well hre go's

[MH184]

Send them to me Allan you know my e mail mate

[MH184]

Allan's CCC

[MH184]

Allan's CCC .