Legion Condor Panzer Badge - Bender Photos

[Yuri D.]

Bill,

Just because the new data did not come from you, does not mean that it can't be legitimate. This new data has brought us closer to solving this riddle. How can you just say that it's meaningless? I will not answer posts that are, as Brian put it, ZAV.

Yuri

[W. C. Stump]

Bill,

Just because the new data did not come from you, does not mean that it can't be legitimate. This new data has brought us closer to solving this riddle. How can you just say that it's meaningless? I will not answer posts that are, as Brian put it, ZAV.

Yuri

I am sorry that you took my statement as "ZAV". ZAV = ZERO ADDED VALUE irks me. Where did that term originalt from anyway? You tend to overlook that most of my information came directly from our mutual friend Rober Bender. Your information is very legitimate. I hope your presentation does brings us closer to solving the "riddle" and it is NOT meaningless. I just think we need more.

[Brian S]

It looks to me as if the Type I is the one he is wearing the day before the parade and the Type II on the park bench.

From the examples in textbooks and the sewed on example above, I would conclude the pin on the Type I quite frankly fell off the badge.


I think we have a data gap here. We need great examples of badges worn later in the war. Same quality as the Bender photos.

I would GUESS that not all pins broke off of all Type I badges while the Type II was being meted out to vets. That would cause me to believe another Type MAY have been produced by someone to replace those badges broken in the 40's.

[Yuri D.]

Bill,

We will always need more. And we will get it because the information is somewhere out there, just like these photos were. But these photos did give us more information than we had before, we were not sure about what type was actually worn because the book-scanned photos were blurry. These photos are a lot less blurry, so we can see specific and important details.

Do not fear for the badge in your collection. It does not matter if it is or it isn't in these photos. But if your badge is genuine, then believe me, there are period photos out there to prove it.

Yuri

[W. C. Stump]

Bill,

We will always need more. And we will get it because the information is somewhere out there, just like these photos were. But these photos did give us more information than we had before, we were not sure about what type was actually worn because the book-scanned photos were blurry. These photos are a lot less blurry, so we can see specific and important details.

Do not fear for the badge in your collection. It does not matter if it is or it isn't in these photos. But if your badge is genuine, then believe me, there are period photos out there to prove it.

Yuri

First, I don't own a Condor Legion Panzer Badge anymore and neither does Prosper, but rest assured they came from Condor Legion vets, just as the Bartz badge featured in the other thread came directly from Bartz to Bender and then to Don Frailey. I have a copy of the history of Ernst Bartz that he wrote in 1976. It was send to Roger Bender by Vogt. I will post the Vogt note next. Since this is hand written in German, my next venture is to get an English translation. It may even add new information that could put another piece to the puzzle in place.

[W. C. Stump]

Vogt's Note

this is he hand written note to Bender from Vogt.

[Brian S]

I will not ignore what I see as distortion no matter who posts it. No deal.

Yuri. Here are the Volker badges. IMHO it looks like the Type I and II we've spotted so far. I straightened the two Volkers so they'd be more in line with our best examples.

I think it is HIGHLY important to note the possibility of Type I pin failure! Opens the door to more Types, we need Mr. Bender (did I say THANK YOU SIR!) to hunt for more!

It's just what I see...

BOTTOM ROW LEFT TO RIGHT TYPE I and TYPE II

TOP ROW; IMHO Volker's I and II..

[Rick Research]

Thank you! I'm afraid without a deep personal involvement in this issue, what I need to see to clarify things is side by sides like that, since I cannot keep straight what is being referred to. Little arrows next to salient features etc etc would also help in unbiased evaluation of the

original photos of these badges being worn

ANYTHING else beyond discussion of THESE badges in THESE photographs is irrelevant unless OTHER badges can be posted for SIDE BY SIDE comparson for the rest of us to keep minute details straight.

Every posting now has a thread number in its upper right corner. If it is REALLY "necessary" to refer back to text--and not specific badge details (and even then) "See post # whatever" and continue ONWARD is far better than this perpetual regurgitation of existing postings especially when OFF TOPIC. Puhleeeez!!

[Lorenzo Brown]

This thread is temporarily closed until clearer minds prevail.

[Sebastian Bianchi]

I have re-opened this thread after cleaning it, stay on topic.

[jacques]

This topic is really interesting and I hope it will go fairly in the right way.
Here are some pics of this badge worn. I don't remember where I picked up them, so I can credit the owner if he recognize them or delete them

jacques

[Brian S]

Great photos Jacques. IMHO all the badges in the photos you presented look like the Type I. Without more detail I can only presume that based on the apparent direction the skull is 'looking'. The Type II looks a little up and to the left IMHO. I can't see enough detail to discern the example in Mr. Bender's book, below.

What appears to be showing up repeatedly are these two types easily identifiable in photos thus far;

[Brian S]

We are missing a clear photo of this third badge in wear identified by the very respected author, Roger James Bender, in his Uniforms, Organization and History of the Legion Condor. This third possible badge appears on page 199.

Perhaps more rare, as a replacement? We need to find this badge in wear or it remains an enigma but nevertheless a valuable potential considering the source.

Obviously more examples appear in collector's display cases and any one of those could be identified with period photos.



That's the hunt!

[Gene]

Is it me or should originals have a teardrop style wreath as opposed to an oval one?

[W. C. Stump]

Where We Are In The Search

I think I can say with assurance that two versions of the First Type badge have been identified. Now we need to try to identify the numbers of the post 1939 badges that were worn. Also, where do we fit the Bartz badge into the scheme of thing post 1939. I brought it to this thread to again give a clear picture of what his documented badge looks like.