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**Don D.** · 07-14-2005, 05:35 AM

Philippe, don't you have an A.S. PAB (hopefully in silver) that you can post inluding hinge, pin, and catch details like Robert did?

Thanks
Don

**robert60446** · 07-14-2005, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by ddoering

Philippe, don't you have an A.S. PAB (hopefully in silver) that you can post inluding hinge, pin, and catch details like Robert did?
Thanks
Don

Guys,
it would be nice to see both badges grades pictures (silver and bronze) marked A. S. (no triangle). As far as i'm concern, the most interesting detail is pronounced edge to the pin (picture from post#32). Last night i have asked Scott (he was posting his PAB's and one of them was AS in triangle) and one more collector about this detail on their AS in triangle marked PAB's. All these PAB's got that detail! I would love to verify this with A.S. (no triangle) marked PAB's. We know already that LW Flak badges (mine and Marc's) don't have it!

Originally posted by Philippe DB

PS: Robert in your last picture which badge did you feature in the top left position?

Philippe,
picture from post#40 features silver PAB#1 and bronze PAB#2 (both are marked with AS in triangle, i was just pointing out that obverse differences between them are "deeper" then the grass pattern only, however Eagles are identical). But at this point it is a side note only, because most interesting thing is common link (links) in the setup on these two badges (pronounced edge to the pin and the way how the pin was sharpened). If we could compare the setup from these two PAB's with setup on PAB's marked A.S. (no triangle) we should have our answer to the question: Is AS in triangle the same company as A.S.? Because the obverse details can change (die repair and etc.), but the way how workers are finishing pin's should stay the same. What is interesting, the two pins from PAB#1 and PAB#2 are slightly different in the shape (right after when the pin is going outside the ball hinge), but their finish is identical (start of the sharpening and pronounced edge). So maybe material used in pin production was slightly different, but still finish on them is identical and characteristic for the manufacturer. Please check one more picture for better view on this.

**robert60446** · 07-14-2005, 06:31 AM

Originally posted by ddoering

As the fakers get better this type of verification will become more important since you cannot fake these details.
Don

Don,
This is an excellent note. They will never be able to fake these small details (it would be too expansive for them). I'm happy like a kid, because it gives us more points of verification. It is amazing what camera can discover. I was looking at these badges million times and i never did catch these details (i didn't know about them). But now, i know where to look and it is easy to spot them.

**anguspm** · 07-14-2005, 07:01 AM

I agree that tooling marks are indicative of originality and cannot be faked without a lot of time and expense. What I was looking at with the pin hook is that this happens with a lot of needle pins and isn´t from the manufacturing process. Having had a quick look through my badges this is present on a number of them and it isn´t limited to certain manufacturers.

These little differences need to be tied down as to what originates during the manufacturing process and what is due to wear/use. Wear and use can be copied/faked but the manufacturing cannot.

**colin davie** · 07-14-2005, 07:02 AM

I am sure sometimes in the past I read about period trade magazines, surely there must be some catalogue offering wire stock, hinges, catches maybe.. components.
Anyone seen one?
Sadly these interesting items end up in the collections of people who don't even read German, or just unsold because they are "boring" and go uninvestigated.
Anyone got one?
C

**colin davie** · 07-14-2005, 07:06 AM

On the point about individual finishing, is'nt it possible that some guy had the job of putting on the hinges of any given firm.... he gets called up and all of a sudden different finishing technique appears.
I don't think a lot of these firms were the huge factories we sometimes imagine.
C
Just thoughts

**robert60446** · 07-14-2005, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by anguspm

What I was looking at with the pin hook is that this happens with a lot of needle pins and isn´t from the manufacturing process. Having had a quick look through my badges this is present on a number of them and it isn´t limited to certain manufacturers.

Hi Angus,
i agree that "hook" reference could be misleading (it could be wear issue), however detail like the start point of sharpening" on the pin is very important reference. Do you remember when Philippe identified GWL PAB's? The way how the pin was sharpened happens to be unique for GWL made badges. The same way pin was sharpened at wounded badges, PAB's and Luftwaffe badges!

**robert60446** · 07-14-2005, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by colin davie

On the point about individual finishing, is'nt it possible that some guy had the job of putting on the hinges of any given firm.... he gets called up and all of a sudden different finishing technique appears.
I don't think a lot of these firms were the huge factories we sometimes imagine.
C
Just thoughts

Hi Colin,
I don;t think so. One more time let me recall GWl case: Do you remember when Philippe identified GWL PAB's? The way how the pin was sharpened happens to be unique for GWL made badges. The same way pin was sharpened at wounded badges, PAB's and Luftwaffe badges!

**Don D.** · 07-14-2005, 07:43 AM

Good comment.

Don

Originally posted by anguspm

I agree that tooling marks are indicative of originality and cannot be faked without a lot of time and expense. What I was looking at with the pin hook is that this happens with a lot of needle pins and isn´t from the manufacturing process. Having had a quick look through my badges this is present on a number of them and it isn´t limited to certain manufacturers.

These little differences need to be tied down as to what originates during the manufacturing process and what is due to wear/use. Wear and use can be copied/faked but the manufacturing cannot.

**Don D.** · 07-14-2005, 07:44 AM

I'm sure there were companies that made and sold the reverse hardware. It had to be used on other things besides military badges.

Don

Originally posted by colin davie

I am sure sometimes in the past I read about period trade magazines, surely there must be some catalogue offering wire stock, hinges, catches maybe.. components.
Anyone seen one?
Sadly these interesting items end up in the collections of people who don't even read German, or just unsold because they are "boring" and go uninvestigated.
Anyone got one?
C

**anguspm** · 07-14-2005, 07:45 AM

Hi Robert,

Agree entirely that the sharpening marks technique is distinctive and therefore indicative of the manufacturing process.

All I´m looking to say is that as we go in to more and more detailed analysis we have to be careful to distinguish what is representative of the manufacturing as opposed to the wear.

I think a good example of this is when somebody says "I like the finish on x y z badge". The finish is important but how many times do people write that with a view to the finish being "pretty" or "not worn" rather than "of the same composition of known originals".

I think Don made a good comparison with forensic science and in reality thats what this is. IMO it would be great if we could come up with a standard list of defined terms with explanations (perhaps pinned at the tpo of the page?). This would help with the language barriers and furthermore prevent the cases of "Oh, I call this a ball hinge" whereas the next person calls it a "roundhead". Now please don´t ask what a cavalier is other than a style of collecting

**Don D.** · 07-14-2005, 07:48 AM

If you look at the crimps on these badges (AS, RK) you will see that they are machine made. They are too consistant for a hand made crimp (tool and hammer). It could have been a hand operated press of some sort.

Someone had to supply the machine to do this crimping.

Look at badges where the catch/hinge is soldered on and you will find variations. In the end most firms used guides cast into the rear of the badge to aid placement.

Don

Originally posted by colin davie

On the point about individual finishing, is'nt it possible that some guy had the job of putting on the hinges of any given firm.... he gets called up and all of a sudden different finishing technique appears.
I don't think a lot of these firms were the huge factories we sometimes imagine.
C
Just thoughts

**colin davie** · 07-14-2005, 07:48 AM

I liked the info and thinking behind the GWL discussion

, but because it was a group of things coming together, certainly not just the pins, though that was very observant of Philippe

But some thoughts must be given over to ideas that fly in the face of what is hoped, that's the only way of getting at conclusive proof.

1. How can it be said that this sharpening is unique to GWL? Has every other pin of every other type of badge of every other maker been checked?
Sorry to be the one that rains on the parade but if comparasons are to be made to forensic evidence, then that has to be done properly.

2.The guy that was given the job of resurrecting the Damascus blades trade complained that every time he trained up new staff the war would take them away and he would constantly be training new guys... why should GWL, Assmann, Juncker etc etc be any different, putting on the pins and hinges seems to me to be a relatively unskilled task probably done by apprentices, the very people the war would take away.

3. 2 pins from zinc IAB Shu.Co. one completely blunt one sharpened, if they are the same it means something significant but if - as in this case - they are different it means nothing? That's not good logic.
C

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**robert60446** · 07-14-2005, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by colin davie

1. How can it be said that this sharpening is unique to GWL? Has every other pin of every other type of badge of every other maker been checked?
Sorry to be the one that rains on the parade but if comparasons are to be made to forensic evidence, then that has to be done properly.

Colin,
I have seen pictures from many GWL Luftwaffe badges, wounded badges and 2 PAB's (unmarked but with GWL characteristics). Catch mounting plate was of course the most obvious link, but pin sharpening was identical on all of them as well! Are all GWL made badges made this way? Impossible to tell...

Originally posted by colin davie

3. 2 pins from zinc IAB Shu.Co. one completely blunt one sharpened, if they are the same it means something significant but if - as in this case - they are different it means nothing? That's not good logic.
C

I'm not saying that all the manufacturers were making pin for badges the same way. I have no clue about S.H.u.Co. manufacturing process...all i can see from AS in triangle marked badges so far that there are some linking them pin finish characteristics, unique for them (pronounced edge to the pin and starting point of the sharpening).

**robert60446** · 07-14-2005, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by ddoering

If you look at the crimps on these badges (AS, RK) you will see that they are machine made. They are too consistant for a hand made crimp (tool and hammer). It could have been a hand operated press of some sort.

Don,
At this point in my opinion we have to spread the "circle of view" on all these "ball hinge" badges. It would be extremely interesting to see pictures from Naval AS in triangle badges as well...

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