My grandfather's, awarded late 1942:
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Marc,Originally posted by Flak88
can you see the finish at the top edge of the pin? I'm posting one more time the same pictures of that area from my PAB's...Last edited by robert60446; 04-07-2007, 06:31 AM.Comment
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The ball on mine is identical to yours on the lower right, but there is no pronounced edge to the pin.
MarcComment
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Cool, thanks for the info. I couldn't see it from your picture. Anyway, please check my ball hinge with yours. Please pay attention to the finish of the rivet going through the ball hinge...Yours is much nicer then mine...Originally posted by Flak88Last edited by robert60446; 04-07-2007, 06:31 AM.Comment
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Marc,
one more picture of your badge hinge with my PAB's hinges...Last edited by robert60446; 04-07-2007, 06:31 AM.Comment
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Marc,
i hate to ask, but could you post good picture of your catch as well...?
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If I didn't like you...
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Great pictures Marc! Thanks. I'm 100% positite that your Flak badge was made by the same manufacturer as mine. Here is the proof! Pay attention to the pin details. Please notice the small hook at the end of the pin on both badges!Originally posted by Flak88If I didn't like you... Last edited by robert60446; 04-07-2007, 06:31 AM.Comment
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And one more shot of your badge with my PAB's...When it is hard to see from pictures, when holding in hand, i can tell that pin and catch from Flak is different from PAB's pin's and catches.Last edited by robert60446; 04-07-2007, 06:31 AM.Comment
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This picture is dedicated to the Philippe. It is the last picture from my PAB's (both AS in triangle). Not only is the grass pattern different between them but Panzer tread as well! Philippe if you could check the "Panzer tread setup" with your AS (no triangle) badge you should notice the differences as well...I would really love to check this AS (no triangle) badges...
Last edited by robert60446; 04-07-2007, 06:31 AM.Comment
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Hi Guys,
Well I came to the conclusion quite some time ago that AS in triangle and A.S marked PAB's for sure weren't made by one and the same manufacturers. However like don Pointed out it's obvious that there is a link between AS in triangle, A.S. and RK. Design, finish used and hardware are indeed either to close to be explained by coincidence or exact matches.
But this is where it gets to difficult for me. When you look at all PAB's you can bring them down to 4 or 5 basic design that are cleary related but not exact matches. So how did it work, who created these dies and how was it done?
For example when your look at the Wernstein design the "One Mother die" theory is acceptable to me although it is in contradiction with the very small differences (e.g stippling pattern in the oakleaves or differences in the grass areas) So if they worked with one mother die they were capable of duplicating the design on to other dies but it was never a 100% match at best 95%.
However one thing that bothers me a lot in that 1 mother die theory is the following. If there were companies that created dies for manufactures of badges why did they only create obverse dies. All Wernstein design PAB's will share the obverse design but no two of them will feature the same reverse
If we get back to the badges discussed in this thread it is obvious that all three of them based upon their general design belong to one and the same family but how and by whom were the dies created?
I think we can safely exclude the "one mother die" theory here. The differences certainly in the grass area are to big to accept this theory as a possibility. So for sure 3 (most likely more based upon the grass patterns) different mother dies.
So how did it work was there one artist creating a series of dies based upon his own design. Possible? Maybe, but if they were capable of duplicating dies (cfr. the Wernstein design) why would the poor artist have to start over and over again to create yet another die. For sure not the most economical way of working even if labour cost at those days where not to be compared with the costs nowadays. However for this theory speaks that it would explain the general similarity in design and even the small differences. Rather then copying himself the artist could have found his jobsatisfaction in trying to ameliorate the details in his design. He tried to make the grass area a little more realistic, tried to add a track link to the panzer, add some more detailing left and right.
If this wasn't how it was done there is only one other possibility as far as I'm concerned. Since the similarity in design can't be explained simply by coincidence they where working based upon detailed drawings of how the end product should look, and somehow the designers of AS, AS in triangle and RK got their hands on the same drawings resulting in 3 related but not in 100% matching designs. For me it is highly unlikely that this is how it was done for the simple reason that I can't image that 3 different artist even starting from the same plan (drawing) could reach end products that are so close to eachother. But then again I'm not a die carver and really wouldn't no what was possible and what wasn't.
Certainly when it comes to who created dies and how was it done for me there are much more questions then there are answers.
KR
Philippe
PS: Robert in your last picture which badge did you feature in the top left position?Comment
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Different reverse dies don't really bother me. I think if you look at them you will see that as the war progressed and materials became scarcer they went from the massive/dished back to the semi-hollow back. Or perhaps it is a function of whatever method/equipment they were using that dictated the style of reverse? The initial production step that produced the badge would leave raised tabs and holes on the reverse that the hinges and catches were then placed into and crimped.
As far as the obverse design goes the picture theory offers an intriguing option. Perhaps there were several "approved" designs and a company could select the one that were going to produce. Put yourself in the artists position. How do you individualize a "standard" design? Hhhmmmmm- maybe if I make the grass look like the steppes of Russia. Who will notice? Not the boss. He just cares about production output. Not the agency that gave me the design. The changes are small enough that we are only recognizing them 60 years later.
Maybe this went on until finally- so many changes had been made that the LDO had to put thier foot down. They then implemented the "Juncker Solution???" or whatever we are calling it. The problem was that by then it was late in the war and you just couldn't stop production so evryone could re-tool.
Lastly, if we can all agree that the AS series of badges is at least two different makers we can (like Robert has done) start to seperate them into product groups and hopefully put company names to them.
Donpseudo-expertComment
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Coming in late to what is an interesting study but I do wonder if we don´t try to overcomplicate things somewhat.
For instance Robert wrote "Please notice the small hook at the end of the pin on both badges!". Well I think that by going to such detail you´ve found how a sharp point bends when pressure is applied to it, similar to how a pencil will go blunt except with metal the excess material cannot break away from the pin therefore it bends over into the hook that you see. Take a standard steak knife and apply a little pressure through the length of the knife and the tip will curl. Of course no one would intentionally do this but the manufacturer might as its safer to have a slightly blunt tip.
As to the differences in badge designs (heres where my personal theory starts
) :
1, There was a design commisioned and held by the authorities.
2, All companies wishing to make a badge had to ask for permission and use the said design.
3, Design was provided in paper format.
4, The various manufacturers used there own staff to make a scale technical drawing for production.
5, Technical drawing transferred to die, stamp or other means of reproduction.
6, Finish applied to badge
7, Hardware added
8, Boxed Packeted and sent out (sold)
If we look at point 4 this is where the differences come in to play. A technical designer has to take into account the production method as each has its own peculiarities eg: Casting needs air channels to maintain an even distribution so some details are lost/replaced/changed to aid this or for example die stamping requires pressure so a fine line would be thicker on the imprint (badge). The designer then has to take into account the material: for example Zinc is not a great material in which to cast fine details due to its brittleness.
So you can see what originally started out as the same drawing has been adapted for each specific circumstance. Finally as with all artists there is artistic liscence in the interpretation.
Hardware:
Whilst this can be easily bought in I can´t see how a firm making pins (a small piece of bent wire) could exist. I think it far more likely that the larger firms made their pins on site in what is a rather simple manner. As they became more profficient the necessary strength was incorperated into thinner and less complicated pins.
However I do believe that those smaller firms started out by buying in a design (be it badge and/or pin) and then going on to make their own distinctions once the contract was assured. Even if they did not buy the designs from other manufacturers they would simply copy them. We´ve seen so many fakes that are very close to originals it would seem plausible that a small manufacturer could easily copy another firm´s design. After all the items were supposedly from the same drawing so how could anyone scream foul
??
OK, thats all for now and I guess it asks more questions than answers but as I said its my own personal theory....so I wouldn´t expect many to agree
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Does (HA) have the same set up, it must be pretty close.
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Good synopsis. I think that your #6-7 can be interchangable based upon the attchment technique at least as far as hinges and catches go. As far as the little things like bent pin tips it is these minute variables that will seperate product lines IMO. Just like forensic science looks at fibers and bullet rifling marks we can identify uniqiue manufacturer tooling marks. Frank tied a Schuco Destroyer badge with a non-standard catchplate which was thought to be a repro to a good Schuco IAB based upon tooling markes on the hinge. As the fakers get better this type of verification will become more important since you cannot fake these details.
Donpseudo-expertComment
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