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David Hiorth

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1914-18 Honor Cross Question

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    #1

    1914-18 Honor Cross Question

    I just received the following ribbon bar from Austria, and I have a question. My scans do not fit than forum standards.

    -1939 Iron Cross / 2nd Class
    -War Merit Cross / 2nd Class / with Swords
    -Long Service / 4 yrs / with Army Eagle Device
    -Wurttemburg / Silver Military Service Medal
    -01 Oct 1938 Medal

    This bar is original, in that I have no doubt.

    Shouldn't there be a 1914-18 Cross of Honor somewhere?

    Is it the wearers choice not to include the 1914-18 Honor Cross?

    Can anyone shed some light on this? It just seems odd to me

    Thanx

    David
    Tags: None
    #2
    Didn't the Honor Crosses have to be applied for? I mean they weren't just handed out to everyone with Great War service, were they? If someone didn't want one, or didn't apply for one, they wouldn't have one.
    (I'm not sure why you think the Honor Cross should be on this bar based on the other awards, unless possession of the Wurtremburg medal would qualify someone. I'm not familiar with that award.)

    George
    George

    Comment

      #3
      George is right on the money here, as with other German states war commemorative and honour medals they were simply applied for and handed out. If you didn’t apply you didn’t get one.


      Regards

      Dez

      Comment

        #4
        Are You really sure it is the Württemberg bravery medal and not something else?

        Of course the people had to apply for the 1914-1918 cross, but it would be very odd, that somebody still in the service didnt want it.

        If You could post a picture it would be helpfull.

        Best regards

        Daniel

        Comment

          #5
          The "Württemberg" ribbon is almost certainly the military long service cross ribbon of the 1918-38 Austrian Republic-- this man was a career NCO of the Austrian army, taken over into Wehrmacht service.

          Technically, he should not be wearing a Wehrmacht 4 with an Austrian 5 (which I think was their lowest class), but strange regulations DID allow wearing a Wehrmacht 12 with an Austrian 5. We've seen other ribbon and medal bars with these mix of pre-1938 Austrian and post 1938 long service awards, and maybe somebody can post some again.

          I've only got a single 25mm post 1938 version of this ribbon on hand--will post later here. The correct black stripes were much narrower than the Wtbg ribbon, but I find that the Wtbg ribbon was used as a "close enough," since German military effects outfitters had it in stock, whereas the Austrians didn't wear German width ribbons before 1938.

          I have NEVER, EVER seen an original German medal bar or ribbon bar with COMBATANT WW1 awards WITHOUT the Honor Cross with Swords. Civilians, of course, got "war effort" awards without being entitled to any Hindenburg Cross at all-- come by Imperial Forum and check out the Ribbon Bar Article on this website too for that sort of weird stuff.

          Comment

            #6
            Do any of the awards on this bar even indicate that the wearer was in WWI ? The four other than the Wurttemburg medal certainly don't. And if the Wurttemburg medal was for five (or even twelve) years service, it doesn't necessarily either. Does it? Am I missing something?

            George
            Last edited by George Stimson; 08-20-2002, 09:24 AM.
            George

            Comment

              #7
              Here is a 25mm post-1938 ribbon bar for one of the First Austrian Republic military long service crosses, and the trifold on which the full size award would have been worn until 1938.
              Attached Files

              Comment

                #8
                By Jove...I think?

                That's the ribbon...similiar in all respects to the Wurttemburg ribbon. I am humbled by this knowledge.

                You can file this under 'D'oh!'

                And it could be a German 12, I believed it to be a 4 due to the fact it is alone

                That explains it...now it puts all the other ribbons I have ID'd as Wurttemburg in question

                BTW...What is the difference between the W'burg Gold and Silver medal on a ribbon bar? Swords?

                Many, many, many Thanx

                David

                Comment

                  #9
                  No swords on the Württemberg ribbon. The golden medal had a golden wreath, the silver one the plain ribbon and the Military Merit Order an enameled wreath.

                  Rick is right with the Austrian ribbon. The 1938 regulations allowed to wear other long service dec. (old Austrian, German Police...) together with ONE Wehrmacht long service dec.

                  Best regards

                  Daniel

                  P.S. here a pic how the Württemberg golden medal looks on a ribbon bar: (picture is from Rick Lundström)
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by Daniel Krause; 08-21-2002, 03:17 AM.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    and the enameled wreath for the Order:
                    Attached Files

                    Comment

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