Panzerkampfabzeichen der Legion Condor

[Legion Condor]

Hello,

if they feel like it, then we can together show the typical features of a stamped model.

You can also list the pieces that I think for copies compare.

have you the pieces in hand you can see more details as to just photos.
But my new photo studio shows everything quite well.

Now she could see the difference to a molded piece.

Greeting LC

Hansgünter

PS:Sorry for my bad english, I hope you can understand everything what I mean.

[Norm F]

Hi Hansgünter,

Thanks for posting your photos. Those are certainly far better quality photos of a 1st pattern badge than have ever been posted before.

But I still don't see proof that it was die struck rather than die cast. A die cast product can still have tremendous detail if it's properly done. I'm not talking about a cast copy of an original. What I'm talking about is a properly made detailed die set that is used to make die cast originals. This would have much better detail than a cast copy of an original badge. And when you compare your nice 1st pattern badge to a later die-struck Schickle LCTB you see a big difference in the amount of detail imparted by the reverse die (see attached comparison).

For whatever reason, all previous anecdotes have suggested that 1st pattern badge were cast. I don't know what the truth is, but I don't yet see definite proof either way. In fact the same thing goes for the 2nd pattern badges although the detail of the reverse of the 2nd pattern is somewhat better than the 1st pattern badges.

I think your idea that the 1st and 2nd pattern badges came from the same maker (whoever that was) is a good theory due to the close similarities of the two designs. Perhaps sister dies from the same master.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Legion Condor]

Hello,

1. Do not make the mistake of using another manufacturer for comparison.
The design is quite different.

2. A very big error is, punched or not to go it alone depending on the back. That alone is not right. You must also include the front in his mind.

3. You will be in a cast piece never find such as shown by me so sharp details!

4. The piece which I think are copies show from the front are significant differences in detail, but also from the back you can see the difference from the negative stamp.

With an embossed piece of the front does not come through the negative details so the back, special by the positive front.

The negative could be quite flat, as it's also on several tracks. But then I get a very thick piece. So something is working you from the negative out of material. Then the piece we thinner and lighter.

Gruß LC

Hansgünter

[Legion Condor]

Hello,

please look at it, the picture of the chains closely. They look very sharp edges, etc.

With a Cast knew were his smooth because the material proceeds even softer and when cool again something comes together and gets a denser form.

These points are confirmed, the images of the pieces that I consider copies. Just as it is also back on the forder page
You see the error that I embossed with circles marked on the copies not so good.

If you look at the entire back side of my piece and compare it with a copy then see very well that is run in the copies the material.

Gruß LC

Hansgünter

[Legion Condor]

Hello,

and on it goes!

I hope the pictures clearly show the difference to a casting and an embossed piece.

Also an original cast would not have these sharp contours, which is also the reason why it has shaped the badge. Simple much better subtleties, and that with each piece.

With a cast always risk from piece to piece remains that we have differences. That is why we find in embossed pieces also always the same mistakes in detail.

More I can not show, now it's your turn to me to prove the contrary.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

[Legion Condor]

Hello,

I would like to once again speak a little more intense over the Spanish models.

2. Why a Spanish model from the same manufacturer?

In my opinion, easy! The tool of 1 Spanish model was getting worse by the stamping quality, which the pieces quite clearly show.

It was replaced with the 2 Spanish model. Because of the slight change in style.
It has been eliminated from the second model to the sharp facial bones, because they have made production problems. What we can indeed look very good.

I have found evidence that produced also the manufacturer of the 2nd Spanish models. I will mention only this but in my book, and the evidence shows it!

Greeting LC

Hansgünter

[Norm F]

Hi Hansgünter,

There are two separate points of discussion here on these 1st pattern badges:

1) Whether the originals were cast or struck

2) Whether we're seeing a combination of originals and cast reproductions here.

With regards to the first question, I agree with the logic of everything you say about the fine details. I just don't know if we can yet state this as fact. What we really need is an expert in die casting to tell us what is the true limit in detail that can be produced by the die casting methods available in 1937. It may be just as you say, but I would like more definitive science behind it. We're used to seeing older cast copies of original badges that show bad detail and we're used to seeing modern micro-castings of originals that show excellent detail on par with originals but that experience doesn't necessarily apply to judging professional die casting methods in 1937.

With regards to the second point on reproductions, again I agree with the logic of what you say, but it's hard to compare the photos since your photos are much better quality than any of the low resolution photos of the other badges in question. Even the best photo I have on record of the "brocksguns" badge isn't as good quality as the photo of your badge although it does show somewhat better detail than the other obverse photo of it that you used in your comparison. It did always seem odd to me that there would be two different base metals used and it's tempting to assume that the brass ones are cast repros of the nickel silver originals, but again I must keep an open mind for now. For the 2nd pattern badges in the other discussion thread, we had reasonable photos of several originals and several cast repros to do a convincing comparison study whereas for these 1st pattern badges we don't yet have an adequate number of examples with sufficient quality images to do the same. But I appreciate the start you have made in this area.

For now, when considering any 1st pattern badge to determine originality I think one would need to look for a) excellent provenance and b) high resolution magnified views to compare with the high resolution photos you have provided of your badge from Major Dr. Engelhardt.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Legion Condor]

Hello,

it is also important to know from which material and how the pieces were produced.

If we assume the original pieces were cast, why did they then cut by hand from.

That would be a step is not logical.

If I cast a piece, I can take the form so I do not have to build the saw.
As well as making the copier.

The base material was a brass plate was placed in the punch. Then the parts were cut out. Coated Finish with nickel silver (alpaca) and polished.

All original pieces are coated with nickel silver and brass. I am of the opinion that there has never been genuine silver pieces. This is a fairy tale. To date, no 1 or 2. Spanish model was found in genuine silver. They were all copies that you can always see if you know the piece well.

Never nickel silver coating is very strong and well made. But you can see in the magnification, the cracks in the coating.

Do you really think that such a gap can be seen in a really Cast?

You must observe my opinion about the sharp defects on the pieces I have shown. This is not so with casting.

That is the reason why I always find the Spanish Cross copies. They knew are never good.

Greeting LC

[Rene Chavez]

Wow great information this thread should be pinned on top for Condor Legion PABs. The images, clarity and information is just outstanding.

Rene Chavez
www.foreignvolunteerlegion.com