Luftschutz 1st class in zinc

[mott5ranch]

123

[James Clark]

By 1943 most badges and medals were being made of zinc. An order in December of 1944 was mute because the war was all but lost by then.

Does anyone have the official list of these awards? I was told that these were local awards issued by local civilian authorities for the help in the war effort . . The bigger the city the more awards were issued.

Awards of the 1st class were supposed to be published but I have never seen a list of all 150 recipients. According to Klietmann the first 4 awards of the 1st class were made in April 1938 with a further 34 1st class awards being made in the autumn of that year. That leaves just over 110 more from late 1938 until December 1944. From 1943 (when you say zinc was being widely used) until the end of 1944 the number of 1st class awards is likely to have been very limited. And the number of 1st class awards made up to that time would already have provided an indication that this award was not widely bestowed and the requirement for it was therefore limited.

This was not awarded at local level. Recommendations were made at local level but the award was granted at national level through the Reichsministerium der Luftfahtrt and Praesidialkanzlei. Far from being given out under a quota system, the indications are that Hitler took a personal interest in awards of the 1st class.

[kenneth wolfe]

Common sense

I don't know if it's just me but the zincers don't pass the common sense test. Look, the metal was instituted on 30 January 1938 when there weren’t any metal shortages. I believe that it's within reason that once instituted they were manufactured soon there after. Considering that very, very, very few of these were actually awarded I highly doubt that the initial stock produced ever ran out, not only that I am not inclined to believe that large firms were producing these late in the war. What for? Think about supply and demand. For argument sake let’s say that the initial run of badges was 5000-15000. Once produced we have the badges sitting in a central distribution center waiting to be give out but only a handful (literally) leave the stock pile over the whole course of the war and you think that they are going to contract the production of more? No! They are not going to contract more. Not only that, I can't imagine that any large LDO firms would produce these for sale late in the war. Why? It defiantly wouldn't be a big seller, obviously because so few were awarded. That doesn't make good business sense. If you have a product that hasn't sold over the course of a couple of years, you are not going to keep producing it and you are not all of a sudden going to say "hey let's produce some of those badges we stopped making a couple years back that didn't sell." HUH? This doesn't make good business sense. The whole late war zinc thing also doesn't make any sense. Ok, I know that zinc may not be as strategic of a resource as let's say iron or copper but I do not believe that any resource regardless of how strategic it is would be wasted to produce items there is no need for when the resource could be used in other ways.


Kenneth

[tgn]

I don't know if it's just me but the zincers don't pass the common sense test. Look, the metal was instituted on 30 January 1938 when there weren’t any metal shortages. I believe that it's within reason that once instituted they were manufactured soon there after. Considering that very, very, very few of these were actually awarded I highly doubt that the initial stock produced ever ran out, not only that I am not inclined to believe that large firms were producing these late in the war. What for? Think about supply and demand. For argument sake let’s say that the initial run of badges was 5000-15000. Once produced we have the badges sitting in a central distribution center waiting to be give out but only a handful (literally) leave the stock pile over the whole course of the war and you think that they are going to contract the production of more? No! They are not going to contract more. Not only that, I can't imagine that any large LDO firms would produce these for sale late in the war. Why? It defiantly wouldn't be a big seller, obviously because so few were awarded. That doesn't make good business sense. If you have a product that hasn't sold over the course of a couple of years, you are not going to keep producing it and you are not all of a sudden going to say "hey let's produce some of those badges we stopped making a couple years back that didn't sell. HUH? This doesn't make good business sense. The whole late war zinc thing also doesn't make any sense. Ok, I know that zinc may not be as strategic of a resource as let's say iron or copper but I do not believe that any resource regardless of how strategic it is would be wasted to produce items there is no need for when the resource could be used in other ways.


Kenneth

Ken, I could not have said it better...Tom

[kenneth wolfe]

Hi

Tom,


Could you post a close up of the reverse?


Thanks
Kenneth

[tgn]

Sure:

[kenneth wolfe]

Hi

HI mott5ranch,

Quick question, are these really on the badge or is it just the photo? Because this does not sit well with me or show the quality seen in German workmanship. I know everyone will say that "oh it's late war" but what does that really mean? Just because something is made late war with lesser quality materials does not mean that the craftsmanship goes out the window. When using a die many edges come out rough but are buffed and sanded off before gilding and defiantly before any distribution. Personally this one gets a thumbs down from me.


Thanks
Kenneth

[kenneth wolfe]

Hi

HI mott5ranch,


Are you sure that this is Zinc? It has a strange appearance for zinc. One other thing that's weird is normally when you examine a zinc badge that's lost of it gliding there will almost always be a little bit on the hardware. But on yours there's no gilding left on either ring, not even a trace. Red flag!! I personally think that this one is a cast copy. This is why: if you look at the one posted by clevischi they are almost identical but yours has less detail. Look at the size of the letters on your obverse and the ones on clevischi's. Yours are just a tad bit fatter and not as well defined. Tell-tale signs of a cast copy. Also the numbers on the back look slightly different from clevischi's. I believe the reason for this is when someone made the die they used and exacto knife to clean up the details and was a tad bit overzealous and instead of being a perfectionist they just used anyway. Now I'm staying that I think that clevischi's is good. What I am saying is that people who buy badges for the purpose of reproducing them are also not infallible. clevischi probably bought his in good faith and maybe the guy who produced these cast copies did the same but neither were time period.

Kenneth

[Andy B.]

Hi Kenneth,
I really appreciate your input. What you stated earlier seems to be good common sense, something I tend to forget about sometimes. I have not had a chance to get measurements and weight of the initial medal I posted, but I think I'll pass on it.
Also, a big thanks to all that have chimmed in, I really appreciate it!!
Sincerely Andy B.

[clevischi]

Kenneth, the medal is not mine, i am thinking in buying it.
But now i am not understand... is not a consensus that this medal in zinc are bad?
Do you think that this one can be good?

[kenneth wolfe]

Hi

No I think they are both bad.



Kenneth

[mott5ranch]

No I think



Kenneth

Again . . . an opinion. so let's only make a few medals with an armed force of 3 million and civil service population many times more . . .

[Andy B.]

I think this question begs to be asked....were these medals only made by one maker or a couple of different ones? Has anyone seen a maker mark on one? Thanks for all the input
Andy

[Stan]

RLB Cross 1st Class

Well, despite what some people say, I still believe that some crosses were indeed made post 1944 (ie post Dec 1943) in zinc. According to my records, 147 crosses had been awarded by August 1944 with 38 being awarded in the first year (1938).

There are three known makers: C.E. Juncker, Wilhelm Deumer and Steinhauer and Lueck.

Stan

[James Clark]

Well, despite what some people say, I still believe that some crosses were indeed made post 1944 (ie post Dec 1943) in zinc. According to my records, 147 crosses had been awarded by August 1944 with 38 being awarded in the first year (1938).

There are three known makers: C.E. Juncker, Wilhelm Deumer and Steinhauer and Lueck.

Stan

This is interesting information and I would be very interested in the source of your figure for awards made (Klietmann says the total number awarded was 150) and the known makers (is this based on manufacturers catalogues?).

One thing I can add is that the Lufschutz Ehrenzeichen 1st class was still included on the LDO price list of awards available for private purchase in late 1944.