EK2 + non combat hindy?

[Yubari]

From time to time I encounter these EK2 combatnant version plus hindy without swords combinations.

Can you imagine it could actually somehow happened or it is just a nonsense?

Thank you for opinions!

[Gardereiter]

The Hindenburg Cross without swords was awarded to persons who were officially classified as non-combattants during the Great War.

Being classified as a non-combattant, however, did not exclude a member of the armed forces from being awarded an EK2 on combattant ribbon. If a non-combattant soldier or military functionary performed an act or acts of valor in the face of the enemy, it would have entitled him to receive an EK2 on combattant ribbon. (Whether or not he was actually awarded a Combattant EK2 was entirely up to the commanding officer.)

FYI: the Combattant Iron Cross 2nd Class was awarded to non-combattant members of the armed forces 180 times during the Great War.

The best known example of this was Battalion-Chief Surgeon Dr. Kuhn running onto the battlefield at the Battle of Moeckern and capturing several French cavalry soldiers. He even managed to pull several of them off of their horses! For his act of valor, he was awarded the EK2 on combattant ribbon, even though he was officially classified as a non-combattant military-functionary.



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[Scott C.]

Yet the Bulgarian and Romanian medals are for a combatant.

[Gardereiter]

Yet the Bulgarian and Romanian medals are for a combatant.

Your observation is very relevant because the award criteria for these two medals are greatly misunderstood !! The medals in question are:

1.) The Bulgarian War Commemorative Medal, and

2.) The Hungarian (Not Romanian) War Commemorative Medal with Swords and Stahlhelm.

The Bulgarians issued only ONE (1) Commemorative Medal on three different ribbons for the Great War to ALL participants in WW1 - combattants, non-combattants, civilians, home-front volunteers, men, women, teenagers... EVERYBODY who participated in the war effort in either a military or civilian capacity for the Central Powers.

The Hungarian War Commemorative Medal with Swords & Stahlhelm is the most misunderstood medal of all. The Hungarians themselves do NOT call this a medal for "Combattants." They simply call it a "War Commemorative Medal with Swords & Helmet" because EVERYBODY who was a member of the armed forces of the Central Powers was qualified to apply for it and wear it. This means combattants, non-combattants... i.e. EVERYBODY WEARING A UNIFORM no matter where he was stationed or what his function was.

From the regulations for the Hungarian War Commemorative Medal with Swords & Helmet:

"A kardos és sisakos emlékéremre mindazok, akik az első világháborúban 1918. október 30-ig bezáróan tényleges katonai szolgálatot teljesítettek, akár a harctéren, akár a hátországban szolgáltak. Folyamodhattak a kitüntetésért az egykori szövetséges államok katonái is."

The Hungarian War Commemorative Medal "Without Swords and Helmet" has a more complex set of award criteria. People who qualified for this award are: anybody (non-military personnel) who provided humanitarian aid to prisoners, wounded soldiers and sick soldiers; anybody who was a member of the Red Cross and who received a Red Cross honor award of any kind; family members of fallen soldiers or of soldiers who died of battle-wounds or illness due to the War; civil servants in office during the War; and finally, people who resisted and stood their ground in the face of socialist uprisings after the War.

From the regulations:

Kard és sisak nélküli emlékéremért folyamodhattak mindazok, akik a világháború során a hadifoglyok, sebesültek és betegek érdekében végzett munkájukért Legfelsőbb kitüntetésben részesültek, vagy akiket a Vöröskereszt díszjelvényével vagy díszérmével tüntettek ki; a világháborúban hősi halált haltak vagy a háborúban szerzett sebesülésükben, betegségükben elhunytak hozzátartozói; a háború alatt állami szolgálatban állók; végül, kivételesen olyanok is, akik a háború utáni forradalmak alatt tanúsított helytállásukért arra méltónak találtattak. Az egykori szövetséges államok ezen pontoknak megfelelő polgárai szintén folyamodhattak a kard és sisak nélküli éremért.


I hope this clarifies matters for you.

[HPL2008]

Allow me to add that while there was only one Bulgarian commemorative medal for WWI, it did come with three different ribbons: The one seen above for military personnel, one with an additional white center stripe for non-combatants (mainly medics, war journalists and civilians) and one with an additional black center stripe for surviving next-of-kin. Here are three examples for the non-combatants' ribbon (the one on the second bar is heavily faded):

3er_Nichtkämpfer_Öst-Ung-Bulg.JPG

EhKr_1418_217.JPG


EhKr_1418_190.JPG


And an example for the combination of the Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer with just the Hungarian War Commemorative Medal with Swords & Helmet (mounted the wrong way around, probably for reasons of "symmetry" so that both awards display the "1914-1918"):

EhKr_1418_195.JPG

Also, let me elaborate a little on the period German regulations for the 1914/18 Honor Cross and on the distinction between Frontkämpfer and Kriegsteilnehmer made for this award.

The Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer was for military personnel who had engaged in actual combat; the Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer was for military personnel who had served in the war without actually engaging the enemy. The only civilians eligible for the Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer were voluntary medical personnel (such as Red Cross medics and nurses) and the uniformed armed forces auxiliaries of the Volunteer Automobile- and Motor Boat Corps, but only if they had been deployed to war zones and thus actively served under the same conditions as the fielded troops.

The 13 July 1934 decree with which the award was instituted regulated:

"Als Kriegsteilnehmer gilt jeder Reichsdeutsche, der auf deutscher Seite oder auf Seite der Verbündeten Kriegsdienste geleistet hat. Frontkämpfer ist jeder reichsdeutsche Kriegsteilnehmer, der bei der fechtenden Truppe an einer Schlacht, einem Gefecht, einem Stellungskampf oder an einer Belagerung teilgenommen hat."
["Rated as a participant in the war is every German national who had rendered war service on the German side or the side of her allies. A frontline combatant is every national German participiant in the war who had participated in a battle, a skirmish, an instance of stationary warfare or a siege while serving with combat troops."]

The implementing provisions of the same date specified:

"Kriegsdienste im Sinne der Verordnung hat jeder Reichsdeutsche geleistet, der im Weltkriege zur Wehrmacht eingezogen war, sowie das Personal der freiwilligen Krankenpflege, des freiwilligen Automobilkorps und des freiwilligen Motorbootkorps, soweit es sich im Kriegsgebiet aufgehalten hat."
["War service in the sense of the decree has been rendered by every German national who had been called up for the armed forces as well as the personnel of the voluntary nursing service, the Volunteer Automobile Corps and the Volunteer Motor Boat Corps, provided they stayed within the theatre of war."]

[Ian Hulley]

HPL2008, could I ask for your expert help please ? What would the device be on this bar on the Hungarian Erinnerung medal please.

Bar 5.JPG

Bar 5 reverse.JPG

Many thanks and also may I say thanks for sharing your extensive knowledge with us here.

Cheers, Ian.

[HPL2008]

It's nothing I've seen before...

I have seen the ribbon for this medal mounted both with and without a swords device (the swords are actually unnecessary, as the ribbon itself is distinctive and different for the two categories of the medal) but never with a crown-and-swords device.

It doesn't really make sense for this medal, either, as it had no crown distinction and doesn't even feature a crown in its design.

I'd say an error or a non-regulation personal stylistic choice.

EKFK-Med_A-HU-BG.jpg

[Ian Hulley]

Thank you very much for that.

Cheers, Ian.

[Yubari]

Just to summarize, please. There was something like a sheet with information which role was war participant and which was "frontkamp"f ? I mean, if there was a chief killing enemies, he still received non combat hindy without swords, right?

[Gardereiter]

I have seen the ribbon for this medal mounted both with and without a swords device (the swords are actually unnecessary, as the ribbon itself is distinctive and different for the two categories of the medal) but never with a crown-and-swords device.

It doesn't really make sense for this medal, either, as it had no crown distinction and doesn't even feature a crown in its design.

I would like to clarify some points about the Hungarian and Bulgarian War Commemorative.

Crown: Even though both versions of the Hungarian War Commemorative Medal have the Crown of St Stephen on the front of the medal, the crown on a ribbon bar for this award does not represent St Stephen's crown. It actually represents the Hadirokkant or "HR" Device issued by the Hungarian War Ministry in 1931. If a soldier serving with the armed forces of any of the Central Powers proved that he became physically disabled as a result of war injuries (such as losing an eye, for example) he was entitled to wear this device on his trefold ribbon. The badge was too tall for a ribbon bar's ribbon, so a crown-device was often used to represent it. (During WW2, somebody finally began producing mini-devices that could properly fit on a ribbon bar's ribbon.) The HR Device was typically worn on the ribbon of the Carolus Laeso Militi Wound-Medal, but if the awarding of a Wound-Medal was overlooked (as was so often the case in 1917 and 1918 when the casualty numbers were staggeringly high,) the soldier was supposed to wear his HR Device on the ribbon of his War Commemorative Medal with Swords & Helmet. Most German veterans of WW1 didn't even know about the HR-Device or that they could apply for it. The German veterans who DID actually apply for it found out they had to pay to receive the device.

Swords: The Hungarian War Commemorative Medal with Swords & Helmet had its own unique ribbon. As I mentioned above, this same medal was awarded to both combattant and non-combattant soldiers serving in the armed forced of the Central Powers. A Hungarian or pre-1938 Austrian normally had a Karl Troop Cross (or its ribbon on a ribbon bar) representing front-line military service in a combat situation, so swords on the War Commorative Medal's ribbon were unnecessary. It was different with German soldiers, however, who did not wear the Karl Troop Cross. German Combattants wanted to distinguish themselves from non-combattants, so swords were the only way to accomplish this, even though this device was regarded as unofficial. Since the medal itself is silver, the sword-device is also typically silver-colored.

Bulgarian Sword-Devices: Like the Hungarian medal I just discussed, the same Bulgarian War Commemorative Medal was awarded to both combattant and non-combattant soldiers serving in the armed forces of the Central Powers. (This medal - worn on a ribbon with a white middle stripe - was awarded strictly to Red-Cross and non-military medical personnel, civil service functionaries, and civilians in general.) The only way to distinguish combat service from non-combat service was with an unofficial gold-colored sword-device on the ribbon. To some German soldiers, this distinction was important. To some, it was not.

[Gardereiter]

Just to summarize, please. There was something like a sheet with information which role was war participant and which was "frontkamp"f ? I mean, if there was a chief killing enemies, he still received non combat hindy without swords, right?

If you're talking about a SOLDIER who was officially classified in his military service record as having served in a non-combattant role/job/position like a Sanitäter for example, he would be entitled to receive the Hindenburg Cross without Swords.

Yes... even if this Sanitäter single-handedly machine-gunned 100 Brits and captured 200 Frenchmen, he would still only be entitled to the Hindenburg Cross without Swords because he was still, after all, a Sanitäter. He would of course be entitled to receive an Iron Cross on Combattant Ribbon for Valor Before the Enemy, but that decision was up to his unit's commander.

[Ian Hulley]

Thanks for the information on the crown device Gil.

Cheers, Ian.

[HPL2008]

Crown: Even though both versions of the Hungarian War Commemorative Medal have the Crown of St Stephen on the front of the medal, the crown on a ribbon bar for this award does not represent St Stephen's crown. It actually represents the Hadirokkant or "HR" Device issued by the Hungarian War Ministry in 1931. If a soldier serving with the armed forces of any of the Central Powers proved that he became physically disabled as a result of war injuries (such as losing an eye, for example) he was entitled to wear this device on his trefold ribbon. The badge was too tall for a ribbon bar's ribbon, so a crown-device was often used to represent it. (During WW2, somebody finally began producing mini-devices that could properly fit on a ribbon bar's ribbon.) The HR Device was typically worn on the ribbon of the Carolus Laeso Militi Wound-Medal, but if the awarding of a Wound-Medal was overlooked (as was so often the case in 1917 and 1918 when the casualty numbers were staggeringly high,) the soldier was supposed to wear his HR Device on the ribbon of his War Commemorative Medal with Swords & Helmet. Most German veterans of WW1 didn't even know about the HR-Device or that they could apply for it. The German veterans who DID actually apply for it found out they had to pay to receive the device.

Thanks for the information. I hadn't been aware of this practice.

(By the way; I don't know why I wrote that the medal didn't have a crown in its design. Monday mornings... )

[HPL2008]

Since the requirements for/categories of the German, Hungarian and Bulgarian WWI commemorative awards have already been covered, I thought I'd round things out by adding the requirements for the Austrian Kriegserinnerungsmedaille [War Commemorative Medal]:

The Austrian WW I commemorative medal was both awarded with and without swords. Eligible for the medal as such were persons who, during WWI, had:

1. been on active military service in the armed forces of the Austro-Hungarian monarchy or its allies,
2. been in the service of the state or had rendered service of a similiar kind and whose service in this role had facilitated the interests of the armed forces of the Austro-Hungarian monarchy,
3. been called on to render personal service for the war effort,
4. been engaged in work for the benefit of wounded, sick or captured members of the armed forces of the Austro-Hungarian monarchy,
5. been active in the welfare for relatives of persons called up for active duty in the armed forces of the Austro-Hungarian monarchy.

The swords to the medal were awarded to:

1. Persons who had been awarded a domestic war decoration with swords, a domestic bravery- or wound medal or the Karl-Truppen-Kreuz.
2. Other persons who were able to prove that they

a) had faced the enemy over a period of at least 12 weeks while serving with combat troops and who had participated in one engagement during this time or
b) were wounded in the face of the enemy or who in the face of the enemy had suffered a health impairment causing disablement or
c) by no fault of their own were taken as a prisoner of war.
d) The Ministry of Defence decides on a case-by-case basis whether the bestowal of a foreign war decoration is recognized as the basis for an award of the medal with swords.

[Yubari]

big thanks for all information shared here - started with hindy but ended up with pretty wide range of other medals as well. Love it !