Dick Winter's Fallschirmschutzen-Handschuhe

[Willi Z.]

Those Devils in Baggy Pants written by Ross S. Carter is a book worth reading, can be found at Amazon.

I just found my old copy. Notes inside indicate I read it in 1985.

[dag001]

Those Devils in Baggy Pants written by Ross S. Carter is a book worth reading, can be found at Amazon.

Definately a worth-while read. I first read the book in 1952, four years after Ross Carter's death. What a cruel twist of fate - Carter survived hell on earth and re-enlisted in the Airborne at the end of the war only to discover a melanoma on his back. He died in 1948.
Here is a picture taken in Nijmegen, Holland - Sept. 1944. The 2nd paratrooper who is looking to his left is Ross Carter.
Does anyone know what the insignia painted on the side of his helmet, and the trooper's behind him is? If I remember correctly, he commented in his book that in Sicily, they painted a "death's head" on the side of their helmets and later discovered it was used by the SS. He also stated that they "didn't give a damn". Does anyone have a picture showing the helmet insignia clearly?

[Mr-X]

Don't forget the long ignored 551st PIR.

Battle of the Bulge combat record.

An initial strength of 800 officers and enlisted men entered combat in the Bulge on the 3 through 6 January 1945 with assaults on the towns of Mont de Fosse, St. Jacques, and Dairomont. On 7 January 1945 the remaining 250 members of the Battalion were ordered to attack the town of Rochelinval over open ground and without artillery support. During the successful assault the unit lost more than half its remaining men including the battalion commander. The Battalion was inactivated on 27 January 1945 and the remaining 110 survivors were absorbed into the 82nd Airborne Division.

Those remaining 250 men on the 7 January assaulted a town defended by the 183rd Volksgrenadier Regiment which was supported by a regiment of 88mm guns and a battalion of 105mm howitzers. They received 3 rounds of friendly artillery fire for the attack. The only other fire support was from their own 81mm mortars.

It took until 2001 for the Presidential Unit Citation for extraordinary heroism during the Battle of the Bulge to be awarded to the unit.

If ever a story had to be told on film, this is it.

[Homer Hodge]

The 551st was actually only a separate battalion (like the 509th) rather than a full PIR. They saw action as part of the First Airborne Task Force in Operation Anvil/Dragoon, the invasion of southern France on 15 August 1944 as well as the Bulge.

[gingerbread]

Don't forget the 509th PIB too.

Regards
Ben

[Mr-X]

The 551st was actually only a separate battalion (like the 509th) rather than a full PIR. They saw action as part of the First Airborne Task Force in Operation Anvil/Dragoon, the invasion of southern France on 15 August 1944 as well as the Bulge.

I did not mention their participation in the Champaign Campaign as it was my intention to compare their actions in the Bulge with that of "other " units.

The 551st was in-fact a battalion. However it was classified as a regiment to confuse enemy intelligence as to its real size. In short its actual designation was the 551st PIR even though it was a battalion.

[Homer Hodge]

I agree that the 551st PIB's performance in the Bulge should be made into a movie. I recall that there was a book about them that came out about 10 years ago. I think the name was Messenger of the Lost Battalion but I can't remember who the author was.

[Marvin Jeffus]

Messengers of the Lost Battalion by Gregory Orflea published about 1997, another great book.

[Matt M]

The 504th missed Normandy because Ridgeway felt they still needed to recover from combat in Italy but they jumped and fought in Holland during Market-Garden and in the Bulge. A tough, experienced regiment.
I read Carter's book in high school and wanted to become a paratrooper.

Hi Homer

I was an officer in 3/504 PIR in the 80's
I interacted with a lot of WW2 Officer's from the 504th during the All American Weeks to include Julian Cook and Virgil Carmichael. They always disputed they were not ready to go for Normandy.
They sent quite a few officers to fill out the 507th and 508th and to help out with pathfinder duties.
Cook always claimed the 504th was held back as part of the deception plan as to the real invasion.
He stated if the 504 wasen't jumping the Germans would surely know the Normandy Operation was the divisionary attack.............Unit pride, most likely.

I can tell you it was a real great experience to be around these men. They were extremely proud of their Regiment and Division even 40 years later.

Julian Cook lost his MOH when he attacked Gen Gavin after the Waal River crossing in Holland.....
Thats another story.

[Homer Hodge]

Matt, Back in the 1960s and early 1970s, I heard the same thing from a number of former officers and NCOs of the 504th; they all said that the 504th was ready and eager to make the Normandy jump and they tended to put the blame on Ridgeway for not letting them go. As you point out, a lot of 504 members jumped in Normandy with the 507th, 508th and the pathfinder teams.
There were many World War II vets still in the Army in the 1960s and as a young soldier I was in awe of these men, especially the airborne veterans.

[Richard]

Getting back to the dicussion of the value of the item. If someone on an auction site offers a tee shirt worn by John Travolta with a letter from him stating it was his, the item could be expected to bring more money than if you or I sold the same item. This is simply due to the celebrity status. However, if someone sold the suit he wore in "Saturday Night Fever" along with a letter, this would be a universally recognized piece of US/movie/celebrity culture (OK, so maybe culture is a misplaced adjective here) which would find a much wider and greater appeal among potential buyers. Not only did John Travolta posess it, but it can be viewed by ensuing generations in the film. The bragging rights on the suit would be much greater than on his tee.

By the same token, the gloves would have somewhat of a greater perceived value to those who know the individual who brought them back or who collect specific personality items once owned by that personality. The value would possibly increase even more, if a period photo showing him holding the items reinforces that he actually had these in his possession pre 1945.

If you think about the added collector value, I would assume there would be none if he had never actually owned these gloves until after the war. In other words, if he had just purchased or received them as a gift in 1995 for example. There would be no tie between the history of the item and the personality but simply a personality that acquired an item after the war that now wanted to sell it.

It all boils down to what value someone will perceive in an item that was liberated by a well known soldier over someone who is not known by as many. I personally would not think these gloves would be worth 3 times as much as a similar set liberated by someone lesser known. But then everyone has to gauge how they value the items they collect on their own as, ultimately, you have to be happy with what you acquire and why.
Richard V

[AFF96]

Very well said Richard!

[Tim R. B.]

this is a very interesting thread. I wonder the value and how the items will be perceived in 50 or a 100 years time. At the moment it's still living history but when these vets 'move on' then there's no link with that period of history. as with most of the stuff we collect give it a few years and it all looks a bargin. Tim.

[John Hodgin]

this is a very interesting thread. I wonder the value and how the items will be perceived in 50 or a 100 years time. At the moment it's still living history but when these vets 'move on' then there's no link with that period of history. as with most of the stuff we collect give it a few years and it all looks a bargin. Tim.

Yeah, just like US Civil War personality stuff. NOT!

[WalterB]

Yeah, just like US Civil War personality stuff. NOT!

Exactly!! I couldn't agree with you more, Mr. Hodgin!