Since we have discussed the absence of leather pull tabs on late war FJ smocks which have the plastic RIRi zippers on several threads, I thought we should start a thread and have an objective discussion.
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Willi
Preußens Gloria!
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Sapere aude -
I did not want to further hijack Gerard's thread on his superb find. I said this on his thread since we were discussing the absence of leather pulls:
The RiRi zippers on grenade bags as issued have narrow string ties. So, if they factory did not use leather pull tabs, why would they not at least use a similiar arrangement? It is very difficult to manipulate these zippers without something to assist you.
So, what could we conclude from this? That we know for sure some came from the factory without pull tabs? Or that it is possible? Still doesn't mean someone took the tabs off. Likely? No, but we don't know for sure. Even the latest issue smocks had very crude leather pull tabs. Why would they have not at least attached string ties? Hard to imagine they went to all that effort to include all the other details, some of which are certainly not needed, and skipped the pull tabs. Why not drop the snaps, the center adjustment, the wind cuffs, the flare gun holster, etc?Willi
Preußens Gloria!
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Sapere aude -
Steve said this in response:
My 45 dated Dietzel didn't.
Willi, I have personally owned 3 smocks without pull tags: all had plastic RiRis.
One was a mint splinter in heavy cotton, one was the 45 dated Dietzel, one was identical to this type. Even in our small forum community I know Gareth and Daniele own tag-less RiRi smocks, and probably others too. I have seen countless other examples over the years. They were all plastic RiRis. Take a look at the size and shape of the pull piece: It was designed to replace the need for a leather tag. I guess some continued to add tags and others didn't. BTW, check out other flight equipment, including flight boots - you will see tag-less, RiRi zips all the time.
On the other hand I have never seen metal zips on a jump smock without a tag ( unless an individual zip had been damaged).
Hopefully others will chime-in with their experiences.
IMO it is not confined to a particular maker. It was probably just a matter of what type of RiRi was supplied at the time.
So, I hope others will weigh in on this interesting topic.Willi
Preußens Gloria!
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Sapere audeComment
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Willi,
As Steve mentioned the mint tan and water smock which I recently posted, does have the plastic RiRis zippers but without the leather pulls.
All the best, GarethComment
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I also have a mint water pattern smock with plastic zippers without the pulls.I think that is far more common to see as it first seems to be.Comment
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Steve, all of the smocks with RiRi zippers I own have the pull tabs. I just looked at 2 which are dated Nov and Dec of 1944. They have pull tabs. And, I have seen many, many more (truly countless) mint water patterns with RiRis and pull tabs. The members of this forum only own a fraction of the mint smocks which are out there. Many FJ collectors with vast collections (some have dozens of smocks) in the US are not involved in forums such as this.
I have also seen RiRi zippers without the pull tabs. Such as the one Gerard just posted. By far the exception, IMO.
So, what does that tell us? That is what I was asking..... It is obvious that some we encounter today do not have the pull tabs. Why? Could it be based on the RiRi zippers the factory had on hand at the time the smock was manufactured? We don't know for sure....and we really can't. As Steve stated it could be based on what they had on hand at the time. But, since metal zippers were clearly used till the end of the war as well, why haven't we encountered them without pull tabs?
The plastic RiRi zipper was not designed for use without the tab any more than the metal ones were. IMO.
Flight gear and smocks are apples and oranges. The flap covering the zipper on the smock makes it very difficult to manipulate without a tab. Wear a smock for a few days and try...it is tough. Especially with gear over the smock. IMO.
Here are both the metal and plastic zipper on hand grenade bags. I see very little difference between the zipper pulls. IMO, nothing to infer that the plastic one is easier to manipulate without a pull tab or string.
Some bags have both string pulls, some bags have none, some bags have 1 of 2 missing.
Other observations please......Willi
Preußens Gloria!
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Sapere audeComment
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Thanks Gareth and Raoul.
I doubt we can trend any patterns between makers and time of manufacture based on what some are saying.
I assume the smocks you guys own are '44 dated.....correct?Willi
Preußens Gloria!
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Sapere audeComment
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[quote=Willi Zahn;2795835]
Here are both the metal and plastic zipper on hand grenade bags. I see very little difference between the zipper pulls. IMO, nothing to infer that the plastic one is easier to manipulate without a pull tab or string.
quote]
Willi,
Photograph them from the side. A clear difference exists.
I agree they function better with tabs, but, as witnessed on flight equipment, were clearerly often issued without ( including smocks). Comes down to what you have seen I guess.
Would a war-time photo convince you ?
Regards,
SteveComment
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Here is an example of grenade bags with rapid zippers and one missing pull.It might be lost or never had one. Difficult to know for sure.Last edited by Maus; 08-23-2008, 11:40 AM.Comment
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[quote=SMP;2795861
Photograph them from the side. A clear difference exists.
Would a war-time photo convince you ?
[/quote]
Plastic has to be injection molded and can not be as thin as metal. Plus, the plastic is molded around the metal pins. Still doesn't prove it was made, by design, specifically for use without pull tabs or string. The hole in the center is there for a purpose as well. It is still designed for a pull tab or string.
Convince me of what, Steve? That some smocks do not have pull tabs?Willi
Preußens Gloria!
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Sapere audeComment
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Hello
I have a tan water smock with the plastic zippers and pull tabs, mine is also very worn with the original eagle,
not having the experience of seeing lots of smocks, are all these smocks without pull tabs mint by any chance? perhaps they are unfinished
why do I think this,
perhaps that as the grenade bags do not share the same type of pulls as the smock's, this could suggest that Ri-Ri made them without and it was down to the assembling factory to add them depending on use, I would see the addition of pull tabs as finishing touches ?
just my thought
Cheers
JohnComment
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I would agree with this if we knew for sure they left the factory without them. But, why take a short cut on a part of the smock which offers a more practical value for use than windcuffs with multiple snaps or a flare pistol holster with buttons?Originally posted by grndevil44 View Post
Since RiRi appears to have made all the plastic zippers and metal ones were made by several manufacturers, to include RiRi, there is still much to think about. It is tough to come up with an absolute answer, IMO.
Worn examples of smocks without pull tabs add another dimension to the question, and allow for far more suspicion of the factory theory.Willi
Preußens Gloria!
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Sapere audeComment
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I started the discussion on Gerard's thread just to point out what can be just a cohincidence, in the end. What looked strange to me was the fact that on the only 2 smocks MATCHING Gerard's camo pattern I had, both USED, pull tabs where missing. All 4. Normal for me was to think that someone had removed them... But removal of all 4 pull tabs on Gerard's mint unissued one simply seems not normal to me, so... was very curious to know if other collectors owning THIS VERY SAME camo pattern smock had found pull tabs on theirs, or not...
DanieleComment
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