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**John Hodgin** · 07-01-2008, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Ostfries View Post

If you are willing to except these type of feld division smocks in sumpf HBT as original then who am I to restrain you, hell, I even will ask Monique to make a red and purple one so that we can start this discussion all over again

.

This is more than a simple, "hey I know very little about this, but I bought it, so is it good?" Forum. What have you learned if you do not ask questions? And no, your absurd red or purple scarcasm will not be considered here.

We all teach and learn at WA. It is better to purchase militaria with the self knowledge that a piece is good because you learned someting than the frail word "good" from a stranger a world away. So we will contiune to ask valid questions, teach, and learn.

Will post a detail photo of a genuine Sumpf FD jacket in heavy cotton twill for those interested in actually learning militaria and not scarcasm.

**monte cassino** · 07-01-2008, 01:19 PM

I must say this one is an obvious fake IMO because it fits the pattern so well of the declared fakes that appear on the market for the last 10-15 years as we concluded. We can be clear about this one.But it is good to take every question and smock seriously ofcours and point out to the forum member(s) with the question why we all believe something is fake or original or why we agree or disagree with eachother. An interesting discussion indeed.

**John Hodgin** · 07-01-2008, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by monte cassino View Post

I must say this one is an obvious fake IMO because it fits the pattern so well of the declared fakes that appear on the market for the last 10-15 years as we concluded.

Of course, and why I assumed it was safe to joke and say "very rare, congratulations" at the begining of this thread, and so wrongly assumed no one would take me seriously. The very reason I replied in this way was to illustrate why no one should collect on the opinions of others alone.

**Ostfries** · 07-01-2008, 02:22 PM

correct mimic in written text,

Originally posted by John Hodgin View Post

This is more than a simple, "hey I know very little about this, but I bought it, so is it good?" Forum. What have you learned if you do not ask questions? And no, your absurd red or purple scarcasm will not be considered here.

We all teach and learn at WA. It is better to purchase militaria with the self knowledge that a piece is good because you learned someting than the frail word "good" from a stranger a world away. So we will contiune to ask valid questions, teach, and learn.

Will post a detail photo of a genuine Sumpf FD jacket in heavy cotton twill for those interested in actually learning militaria and not scarcasm.

Its difficult to express the correct mimic in written text but what you are saying was just my kind intention. To, just like all other members who replied in this thread, reply to a serious question, making it clear and preventing a fellow member from a valuable mistake. It’s the smock we are discussing here not one another’s knowledge but unfortunately I now get the impression that you are placing your personal opinion/feelings above that of the best interest of a fellow forum member.

**John Hodgin** · 07-01-2008, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Ostfries View Post

the smock we are discussing here not one another’s knowledge but unfortunately I now get the impression that you are placing your personal opinion/feelings above that of the best interest of a fellow forum member.

No, trying to get a member to consider for himself. It is trying to increase members knowledge through consideration of this smock. My "where is the eagle?" comment was made in hopes that Edwin might consider what I stated to Glenn about eagles not being applied to fake jackets.

My joking replies were too simplistic and when I realized these comments were a mistake I told Edwin so. " Very sorry, I guess it is best to always be serious here. There are details missing that are a bad indication. "

Without the proper knowledge (some of which has now been discussed here) what will Edwin do? Return the jacket to Weitze and say, "it's a repro because someone, who you do not know, and who's opinion you do not care about, said so."?

**Edwin** · 07-01-2008, 03:03 PM

Again a wise leason....I better stick to my WH camo's.
It was more about a bad feeling that I strated this tread. I collect WH camo for a long time time now and I allways wanted a FD smock...bit supriced by opening the box to see a HTB smock....thats made me be worried

I thank John for all the feedback en explenation....thats something more than the usualy "i don't like it's" i see to much here
Wise back-up'ed feedback

regards,

Edwin

**John Hodgin** · 07-01-2008, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Edwin View Post

I thank John for all the feedback en explenation....thats something more than the usualy "i don't like it's" i see to much here
Wise back-up'ed feedback

regards,
Edwin

I am sorry for your bad experience Edwin, both with my first silly replies and in having to deal with a bad piece.

Don't give up, you will find a good FD jacket. And as I stated, if you need more information about details of good FD jackets, PM me your email, and I'll send you some photos of good ones.

Best and good luck,
John

**mayer** · 07-01-2008, 03:30 PM

Johon
i'm one of those that don't belive that the HBT Sumpf FD jackets are existed! And i'd not only consider the bad manifacture of Edwin's jacket, but is only that in many years of collections, as many others old reputables collectors, i never had the prove or the opportunity to examine only a piece of this cloth, and i don't belive somethings like this has been made for the LW, neither for WH! Or what about of those HG wrappers camos with pants unused that are going around the world in these lats 15 years in the same cloth? I can't belive that someone buy somethings like that

**besslein** · 07-01-2008, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by mayer View Post

Johon
i'm one of those that don't belive that the HBT Sumpf FD jackets are existed! And i'd not only consider the bad manifacture of Edwin's jacket, but is only that in many years of collections, as many others old reputables collectors, i never had the prove or the opportunity to examine only a piece of this cloth, and i don't belive somethings like this has been made for the LW, neither for WH! Or what about of those HG wrappers camos with pants unused that are going around the world in these lats 15 years in the same cloth? I can't belive that someone buy somethings like that

I have the same felling,I remember many years ago this pz hbt set"s for sale with a name tag H G division panzer item

**Ostfries** · 07-01-2008, 03:38 PM

the purpose of a thread,

Originally posted by John Hodgin View Post

No, trying to get a member to consider for himself. It is trying to increase members knowledge through consideration of this smock. My "where is the eagle?" comment was made in hopes that Edwin might consider what I stated to Glenn about eagles not being applied to fake jackets.

My joking replies were too simplistic and when I realized these comments were a mistake I told Edwin so. " Very sorry, I guess it is best to always be serious here. There are details missing that are a bad indication. "

Without the proper knowledge (some of which has now been discussed here) what will Edwin do? Return the jacket to Weitze and say, "it's a repro because someone, who you do not know, and who's opinion you do not care about, said so."?

By every reply this discussion gets steered in another direction, why this whole discussion while you state knowing this smock being a reproduction all along. Blue backed eagles where often worn on all sort of Luftwaffe smocks, enough of them around so lots of possibilities for the fakers to ad one of those. Perhaps unintentionally but especially your last remark is very disregarding towards all members who took the effort to reply on this thread stating the smock is a reproduction because I personally highly respect all of them for who they are and the knowledge they bring with them. I strongly doubt it but what purpose would this whole thread have if the thread starter would not take the replies on his own question seriously in his consideration regarding returning the smock to the seller or not.

Originally posted by John Hodgin View Post

what will Edwin do? Return the jacket to Weitze and say, "it's a repro because someone, who I don't know, and who's opinion you do not care about, said so."?

Its just what he, sensibly, already did.

**John Hodgin** · 07-01-2008, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Ostfries View Post

By every reply this discussion gets steered in another direction, why this whole discussion while you state knowing this smock being a reproduction all along. Blue backed eagles where often worn on all sort of Luftwaffe smocks, enough of them around so lots of possibilities for the fakers to ad one of those. Perhaps unintentionally but especially your last remark is very disregarding towards all members who took the effort to reply on this thread stating the smock is a reproduction because I personally highly respect all of them for who they are and the knowledge they bring with them. I strongly doubt it but what purpose would this whole thread have if the thread starter would not take the replies on his own question seriously in his consideration regarding returning the smock to the seller or not.

Its just what he, sensibly, already did.

Still do not know just what you are trying to say other than rant. Will you do this the next time you PM me asking if your new bandoleer is good?

Edwin has already emailed me with a kind message. Seems his agenda is not the same as yours.

**mayer** · 07-01-2008, 03:55 PM

Yes maybe we went in a discussions out the Edwin's jacket, but i think it has been an intresting discussion at the same! And i don't think that Edwin upset it, on the contrary. I hope he will get his money back very soon, good luck Edwin and be careful next time

**Ostfries** · 07-01-2008, 04:10 PM

schoolyard level,

Originally posted by John Hodgin View Post

Still do not know just what you are trying to say other than rant. Will you do this the next time you PM me asking if your new bandoleer is good?

Edwin has already emailed me with a kind message. Seems his agenda is not the same as yours.

Was this before or after you asked me to be a FD section moderator, unfortunately this discussion reaches “schoolyard” level, pleas keep your reactions well mannered mister Hodgin.

**Willi Z.** · 07-01-2008, 06:31 PM

Personally I find these jackets extremely difficult to accurately reproduce. Second only to FJ smocks. They did not make good fakes 10 to 15 years ago. Sorry.

I do remember when the fake HBT splinter Heer pull over smocks were introduced years ago. Almost everyone was fooled! Some were fooled by those HG sumpf HBT Panzer wraps as well.

"Never say never" is not something I always subscribed to in the past, but I certainly do now! I would never say that water pattern Luft jackets were not made in HBT. I just haven't seen an original yet.

John, we both know a very seasoned and long time collector who originally owned many of the things we now own. He has had several water pattern jackets that did not have their eagles. I had a very tough time believing that but I could find ANY sign of an applied eagle.

**John Hodgin** · 07-02-2008, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by Ostfries View Post

this discussion reaches “schoolyard” level, pleas keep your reactions well mannered mister Hodgin.

Your posts appear to me (as they seem to members who have emailed and PM'ed) scarcastic and unfriendly. So, I find your "well mannered" statment extremely ironic.

If by "schoolyard" you imply this thread is educational, it is.

Fakers "could sew 'blue' wool backed eagles to their fake jackets"????? Please post a photo of a Sumpf jacket with an authentic wool backed eagle. Would love to see one!

As I stated, we will continue discussing why a piece is good or bad, and will try to do so without giving too much information to fakers. Edwin is far better equipped to purchase an authentic FD jacket on his own now, and at a greatly reduced risk of making another mistake. A simplistic, "it's bad" would not have left him so prepared.

Larry, splinter FD jackets were produced in three materials: HBT, smooth cotton, and heavy cotton twill. Sumpf FD jackets were produced (as far as we now know) in two materials: of smooth cotton and also in heavy cotton twill. Here is a detail of a heavy twill example. The fabric is as thick as that of an early twill jump smock.

John

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