"KRETA" Cufftitles

[Matt L]

Is anyone familiar with variants of the "KRETA" Cufftitle? I recently picked up a rather interesting one that is somewhat different than the textbook yellow thread on white fabric. This one is light tan linen-type heavy cotton fabric and the thread is a yellow-gold synthetic. The stitching pattern of the letters and the flanking lotus-motif and the edging matches that on other 'standard' cufftitles I've seen pictures of. So, I'm quite curious whether I got a wonderful deal on a known variant or just picked up a nice repro (I didn't pay much for it). I'll try to post some images shortly.

Matt

[Matt L]

Here's the image:
http://www.auctionhawk.com/upload/Pa...er_Group-2.jpg

[Prosper Keating]

I've just seen one identical to this in a shop in Paris. For FF 380.00m which equates to around $50 US or so. Before I said anything, the dealer said that, as far as he was concerned, it was a reproduction. I think that if he didn't know for a fact that it was a fake, he'd have asked me for advice about it. The embroidery is of a high quality but that washed-out artists' canvas material looks a bit odd.

Hope this helps. Anyone else seen these?

Prosper Keating

[ 11 January 2002: Message edited by: Prosper Keating ]

[CSP]

Matt:
I owned one like this almost 20 years ago. On mine, the ends showed signs of having been burned slightly. For a long time, I thought it was authentic. As I became more familiar with the standard issue, I learned to doubt it.
Not sure I know 100% still today to say it is a fake, as I do not know the origin of the forgery. Prosper's French shop owner seemed a bit more certain. It clealy does not conform in the background cloth material used. The embroidery is, however, close enough to be considered almost'textbook'...but...the color (and mine was the same) is off color from the standard gold-yellow. Yours is more golden than yellow and should show as being pretty darn yellow.
I'd draw your attention to the article I wrote on the KRETA cuffband which is posted to the Wehrmacht-Awards web page for details of more standard pieces. I am by no means an expert - however, I am shamelessly promoting the web page and my effort. I took a long standing interest in cufftitles, 30 years of looking at them, some common sense and a lot of books to put this article together.
My personal opinion is that the example you show is not good. I am only 95% sure. As I note in the article, a colleor need not accept varaitions that cannot be document for this particular cufftitle, as they are common enough on the market that with some patience, one or more will come up for sale in your colleting lifetime that adhere to the accepted standard and are affordable. BTW, a correct price range is more like $450 US.
Hope this helps. I ahve saved the photo you posted as I am in the process of updating the article I wrote. May I use the scan in the article?
Scott

[Willi Z.]

I agree that there is not much to like about the above Kreta, For me, details of the letters and the back of the lettering hold the key. Specifically, I focus on the letter "A". On those which are generally accepted to be textbook originals the left leg of the "A" is thinner than the right leg. Most reproductions do not feature this. On those textbook originals both legs of the "A" meet at the top in almost equal halves, and are level with one another. Many reproductions overlap at the top of the "A" and do not split evenly.... This method has worked for me to help rule out most rather quickly....not an exact science but I look for this initial discriminator, along with the dual color thread construction on the back.

Scott, I saw you are seeking help with Afrika cufftitles, documents and photos. I can offer 3 "Afrika" cufftitle documents to Fallschirmjäger; 2 being of the Luftwaffe style and one being of the Heer style. Can also offer one textbook cufftitle which has been on a uniform and a picture of von der Heydte wearing both the Kreta and the Afrika.

Regards,

Willi

[Matt L]

Thanks guys- too bad it's not authentic. I still wonder why someone would go to all the trouble of making the stitching, edging and acanthis so properly using absolutely wrong fabric and thread. One would think someone trying to make a forgery would try to make it all correct- thread and fabric seemingly the easiest things to get right. Then again, I've never understood the minds of forgers.

Scott- of course- you're quite welcome to use the image. If you'd like a better one, just let me know.

Matt

[CSP]

Matt:
I would like another image, obverse and open reverse if you can scan a few more and send them to me email.

Willi:
Thanks, I'll take your offer for any and all - especially the documents. I have had an overwhelming response fom members, so I hope to be able to rise to the occasion and put good words to the excellent pictures.
I agree with your assessment on the above KRETA. Pretty good embroidery on a fake, however.

Scott

[Prosper Keating]

You're right, Scott, the machine embroidery is really very good. I was comparing it to a real one yesterday and there isn't much in it! I too will never understand the bone-headedness of fakers who get the hard part right and then stumble over the - relatively - easy part, such as sourcing materials. F*cking idiots! Just as well they are, though! Here's another example:



This little gem is beautifully made, in the correct aluminium and gilt wire on the right kind of badge cloth. Period thread was used inside the 'bullion' etc. In short, a fake designed to deceive. Made to order in London some 20 years ago for a wellknown British dealer who produces guides many of us laugh at.

Just one problem: it's the size of the armbadge rather than the Army Bergführer badge, which is roughly two-thirds the size. Too big, in other words. The production run was cancelled but I acquired two of these before my mate, the embroiderer at Israel M Hand & Co (honestly!) near Piccadilly in London fed them into the stove.

I subsequently wound the dealer in question up with them but that's another story that I think I told elsewhere on this forum in the past.

Prosper Keating

[CSP]

Prosper:
That's a fake quarter next to it also...send it to me for my archives.

Scott

[Mike H]

Another Kreta ...

Gentlemen,

I love cufftitles and I thank Scott for doing a great job on the Kreta. Below are some photos of a Kreta that I obtained from George Petersen which is quite different than the normal variety. This one was apparently hand embroidered and is almost three-dimensional in its beautiful detail. Any comments are welcome. I thought you might enjoy seeing it.

Mike Heuer

[CSP]

AAAAAAAAAaaahhhhhhhhh! Mike. You got out ahead of me. Your cufftitle is going into the next update of the KRETA article.
But, that's cool.
Scott

[Matt L]

Hey guys,

I just realized something- the edging on my "KRETA" is stitched on differently than the one Mike just posted (which is excellent, by the way)- Mike's, and "AFRIKA"s I've seen, have the edging machine-stitched on after the fabric is folded- mine was folded after the edging was applied. Is there a 'standard' method of assembly for cufftitles with this type of edging? What I mean is, does anyone know for sure that authentic cufftitles ALWAYS had the edging stitched on after folding?

Matt

[CSP]

Stitching after folding is not necessarily the indication of an original or a repro in my opinion.
Scott

[Mike H]

Ooops ...

Scott,

So sorry --- I didn't mean to get out ahead of you by posting the photos of my Kreta. The piece is just so nice, though, I couldn't resist and I didn't think you were going to run the photos of it in your article.

Anyway, I will check in advance in the future --- but hope everyone enjoys it in the meantime.

Anyone have a Tannenberg cufftitle or photos at least?

Mike Heuer

[John Hodgin]

Kreta cufftitle on wool

Eric will be posting photos to go with this thread. Illustrated is a Kreta cufftitle on white wool. This example was once on a tunic or flying blouse, shows wear, and has a few moth nips. There are nine parts to each acanthus leaf; cotton Kreta titles have seven parts to each leaf. Does anyone have additional information on this variation?
Thanks.