Feldherrnhalle dog tag

[Doc]

Hi All,

I would like to ask for your assistance. Could you please, tell me your opinion on this dog tag.
Thank you in advance,
Doc
<!-- / message --><!-- attachments --><!-- / message --><!-- attachments -->

[Chris Stewart]

I find this disc to be very confusing...either it is fake, or I have just never seen one stamped like that. I think I'll let Matt help out

[Matt L]

Hi Doc,

Nothing immediately jumps out at me to suggest the disc is bad, and the unit did exist- for a brief time at least (formed on 20.6.1943, destroyed 6.1944). Is the disc already in your collection or is someone offering it to you?

Matt

[Doc]

.

[Doc]

Hi Matt,

Thanks for your reply. The disc is already in my collection. The Feldherrnhalle Panzergrenadier Division was destroyed during the siege of Budapest between November 1944 and February 1945.
Doc

[Ian Thomson]

Hi Doc, this is what Nafziger says about the Feldherrnalle Panzergrenadier Division. It was formed in June 1943 from the 60th Panzergrenadier Division, and destroyed July 1944 near Minsk in the Soviet Summer Offensive of that year. Hitler ordered it be reformed in November 1944 and it was joined by the 13th Panzer Division to become Panzerkorps Feldherrnalle. The Division itself became the Feldherrnalle Panzer Division. The 13th Panzer Division was later redesignated the 2nd Feldherrnalle Panzer Division so this division was renamed the 1st Feldherrnalle Panzer Division which was again destroyed and in February of 1945 it was reformed again What I`m saying is Matts right as well, and after all that I`m going to have to go and have a lie down

Cheers
Ian

[Matt L]

Hi Doc,

Okay, well as I said, nothing looks bad to me. Even the 'MOT.' without the usual parentheses is still a proper marking.

According the the Lexikon der Wehrmacht website, your information about the Feldherrnhalle isn't exactly correct though: Panzergrenadier-Division "Feldherrnhalle" was destroyed in 7.1944 in the area around Minsk; it was reconstituted on 1.8.1944 in Warthelager and went to Hungary; on 27.11.1944 it was renamed 1. Panzer-Division "Feldherrnhalle"; the unit returned to Germany in 2.1945

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...herrnhalle.htm

Panzer-Division "Feldherrnhalle" was renamed Panzer-Division "Feldherrnhalle 1" on 23.3.1945, and was sent to Hungary again to participate in the seige of Budapest in 4.1945; the remnants (after suffering heavy losses) retreated to Austria where they were taken into Soviet captivity.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...onen/FH1PD.htm

Pionier-Bataillon "Feldherrnhalle" was created on 20.6.1943 with Panzergrenadier-Division "Feldherrnhalle" and listed as destroyed in 6.1944; when Panzergrenadier-Division "Feldherrnhalle" was reconstituted as 1. Panzer-Division "Feldherrnhalle", its Pionier-Bataillon was armored and became Panzer-Pionier-Bataillon "Feldherrnhalle", so what I said about your disc is correct- that particular incarnation of the "Feldherrnhalle" Pionier unit only existed for about 1 year.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...t/PiBatFHH.htm

Since your disc doesn't have a blood group letter on it, and since it doesn't really show any signs of wear, I'd guess it was an unissued 'extra'. Because the unit was created from existing formations, all of its soldiers would already have discs, and so the only ones who might wear one like yours are those who lost their original disc, or perhaps some of the command staff.

Matt

Hi Matt,

Thanks for your reply. The disc is already in my collection. The Feldherrnhalle Panzergrenadier Division was destroyed during the siege of Budapest between November 1944 and February 1945.
Doc

[Matt L]

Of course if the disc were issued to a member of the new command staff of the unit, he just might not have gotten around to having his blood group stamped on the disc too...

M

[Doc]

Dear Matt and Ian,

Thank you bouth for the detailed information and professional opinion regarding the dog tag. I also esteem professional literature highly, but nevertheless I think that the Russians knew better in 1945 whom they had been fighting with in Budapest than our present day data bases would ever be able to figure. Current databases – reasonably – rely on insufficient information.

Please find attached the Ultimatum of December 1944 sent by the Russian Army to the defenders of Budapest.

Cheers,

Doc

[Doc]

2.

[Matt L]

That's an interesting document Doc, but you know, I'd actually be more inclined to believe the opposite: that the researched references would be more accurate than Soviet intelligence of the time simply because intelligence can very easily be completely wrong.

I would agree that the possibility the references are wrong exists if it weren't for the very specific information they have- since they have the actual day things happened, this must be based on German documentary evidence. Tessin and others must have found documents to say that on 27.11.1944 Panzer-Grenadier Division "Feldherrnhalle" was renamed 1. Panzer-Division "Feldherrnhalle", and that Panzer-Division "Feldherrnhalle" was renamed Panzer-Division "Feldherrnhalle 1" on 23.3.1945. What this suggests is not that the Soviets weren't fighting the same men who had been in the units of the "Feldherrnhalle", but that the proper designation of the unit had changed twice between 27.11.1944 and 23.3.1945.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the average Landser had no idea the title of the main unit had changed; since it would likely be from prisoners and captured documents that the Soviets got their information, it's entirely possible that they believed they were fighting Panzer-Grenadier Division "Feldherrnhalle" because that's the unit the German soldiers thought they were in or that the Soviets had found documents that were more than 4 months old.

It really is interesting to see that the present references and period Soviet intelligence don't agree!

Matt

[Doc]

Basically I agree with you Matt, although I am convinced that the renamings and reorganization and fill-up of Feldherrnhalle Division after July 1944 happened only on paper. This Division has been circled and fully destroyed by the Red Army in Budapest in December 1944/45. After they had broke out from the city on 11 February 1945, some 5-700 soldiers managed to reach the German lines. The rest died or was captured. The newly reorganized division –under a new name- was not more than just a flag on the strategic map of Berlin.

Doc

[Gaspare]

I always thought most of the unit was destroyed in Hungary also. ..

I have photos of this tag in my files. When it was first found and after it was cleaned.If I remember right the tag was found in Hungary. I was also sent photos of a SS-KAV tag that was 100% good with it.
Although I usually don't like a thick stamp I do like the looks of this tag..,G.

[Chris Stewart]

I find it interesting too that Feldherrnhalle is stamped by individual letters, not one stamp. It is hard to base anything off that alone, but to me it may imply that this unit existed for a short period of time, or that not many of these tags were issued. It seems somewhat common that commonly used, large words such as that are incorporated into one single stamp to make stamping easier and faster.

Just some thoughts - and I don't claim that any of it is definitive!

[Gaspare]

Chris, Field versatility,or lack of,They would still have to carry a full set of stamps if it was one piece. One piece stamp that large is also very hard to produce AND they also break very easy. Considering the circumstances and conditions concerning that unit, I'd be worried if that tag was one piece.. , G.