Simply amazing 
-
-
John,Originally posted by John M. Donovan View Post
I'll respond more later, but I disagree with most of what you have written. A Stabskompanie was comprised of much more than clerks, orderlies, messengers, and drivers. What do you mean by "I know people see the word "Scharfschützen" (actually Scharfschütze is correct) and get excited?
BarryComment
-
Hi Barry,
Agreed, a regimental Stabskompanie was more than that, but that's the heart of it. My point is that I think there is a lot being read into a training course. Just because he received the training doesn't mean that he would have actually have been employed as a sniper. It's a big leap from a training course to frontline duty as sniper. A Soldbuch is a lot more definitive because one is able to the see equipment issue - rifle, scope, etc.
Barry, you know I like you...I'm not taking a dig. Strictly speaking about the WP.
JohnComment
-
And what's more the Death entry is signed by a veterinary officer; therefore the sniper is almost certainly not human.Originally posted by John M. Donovan View Post
Comment
-
John,Originally posted by John M. Donovan View Post
I agree that a Soldbuch is always a lot better to estimate the real employment as a sniper. Though I have to note that Scharschützenlehrgang equipment was also recorded in the Soldbuch, so you'd have to be sure to check if he was in a front line unit at the date the equipment was issued.
What I liked in this Wehrpass is:
a) that the 'Scharfschütze' Lehrgang is mentioned on page 21, and not as a simple 'Zielfernrohrgewehr' entry among many other weapons on page 20. You will see the latter much more often.
b) it is the only specialty mentioned on that page. Why state that chanches are higher he was a clerk or a messenger if there are no entries such as 'Rechnungsführer' or 'Melder' to back that up (see the link below for a simple example of a guy who was in the same Füs.Btl.). His Führerschein for Klasse IV would hardly make him a driver as well.
c) Apart from the one week in the divisional Pi.Btl. he was always with reconnaissance units; I'd say that's a good background for a sniper. He also had the good age. I completely disagree with your comment that snipers wear chosen among the seasoned veterans. ALL sniper Soldbucher I have owned were to soldiers born in 1923, 1924 and 1925. Some of them had front line experience, others were drafted immediately from their training units into the Scharschützenlehrgang.
As a sidenote, I used to own a similar Wehrpass to a 352.ID soldier who was born in the same year as Hüther and who was killed one day later in Saint-Andre-de-l'Epine. Interesting to see that his KIA entry was also signed by a Veterinär.... probably some strange habit within the 352.ID.
http://wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/s...d.php?t=758494Comment
-
Personally, I am more intrigued by this indeed strange signature of a veterinar for such important entry ! Does somebody knows other example(s), except for this division ?Comment
-
That is quite the story, reads like a Hollywood script. It is a stretch based on the information in the Wehrpass. It is however a really nice WP. JComment
-
I wonder if a veterinar in particular circumstances could cure humans as well. After all he had a medical preparation, and wounded men had the priority before the wounded horses
Comment
-
I don't want to take this too far off topic, but incidentally I found another sniper document on the SoS this year... Fritz Loh had the same age and was killed only two weeks before Hüther, though on another front, in Santopadre - 20 miles behind Monte Cassino.Originally posted by Tim DC View PostComment
-
Tim, that's a sexy death notice! There's no doubt that Fritz Loh was trained and employed as a Scharfschütze in Italy. Like Hüther, he also doesn't have a grave - coincidence?
I don't want to dedicate too much time debating how Hüther was employed at Normandy, especially because I am still comfortable with what I wrote in my original description. Several of my friends familiar with German soldiers who received sniper training and and know something about sniper training and the employment of snipers through entries in Soldbücher and Wehrpässe are on board with me - yes, some of my description is hypothetical, but I presented it as such and not as an absolute fact. Will we ever know if Hüther was without a doubt employed as a sniper from 6 - 12 June 1944? No! Is there evidence to support that he probably was? Yes!
As my good friend, John Donovan, stated, entries in the Soldbücher of snipers are much more revealing regarding their employment in the field. I have owned and have seen about a dozen sniper Soldbücher and Wehrpässe. After receiving sniper training, which not only took place at sniper schools, but at Division-Kampfschulen (Divisional Combat Schools), some soldiers were employed as snipers. Other times, after receiving sniper training, these soldiers were employed as regular infantrymen according to their weapons issuance pages. I have owned two Soldbücher for soldiers who attended Division-Kampfschulen, where they were issued a rifle with scope and special SS (Scharfschütze) ammunition during their Scharfschütze-Lehrgang (Sniper Training Course); however, when these soldiers were assigned to a field unit, their equipment pages show they were issued a K-98 rifle or some other type of rifle, which suggests these soldiers were not employed as snipers. Incidentally, I now own just one "true" sniper's Soldbuch. This soldier served with a Gebirgsjäger unit and was issued a sniper rifle and SS ammunition with his field unit.
I am one of the ID collectors who always finds it interesting when I see an entry related to Scharfschütze training or employment in a Soldbuch or Wehrpaß. Many years ago, a former German soldier told me that during his basic training (this was in early 1944), recruits who showed proficiency at the rifle range - that is, recruits who were proficient at target shooting - especially those who kept their rounds in a tight pattern - were selected for the sniper training course. These young recruits (18, 19, and 20-year-olds in 1944) who showed a proficiency in shooting were selected for the sniper training course. Many of these recruits were already proficient marksmen, especially because they had been members of the Hitlerjugend and had one or more years of target shooting experience.
From D-Day to 12 June 1944, Hüther certainly did not serve in a non-combatant role. Entries in his Wehrpaß show no evidence of him being a clerk, radioman, orderly, messenger, driver, etc. We know that he qualified on the K-98 rifle, l.M.G. 34 and Luger pistol and received special training as a sniper. I wish the dates and location of his sniper training were listed. My guess is that he was given sniper training while serving with the 2./Schnelle-Abteilung 512. From 26 September to 20 November 1943, Hüther was assigned to Aufklärung (Reconnaissance) units. From what I have read, mobile and reconnaissance battalions in particular had snipers attached to them because their combat role required it (I completely agree with Tim De Craene's previous comments). I also find Hüther's brief assignment to the 3./Pionier-Bataillon 352 revealing, especially because he had no training as a pioneer. So why would he be assigned to a pioneer battalion, even for a short time? Pioneers constructed bridges, fortifications, roads, etc. While pioneers were doing construction, they were not armed (yes, of course, they had weapons nearby, but they weren't building things and carrying weapons at the same time). Riflemen and snipers protected the pioneers as they carried out their duties. D-Day wasn't until 6 June 1944, but the FFI was active, so there was a threat of enemy attacks and if nothing else, this would have been good training for Hüther and other riflemen/snipers before the expected invasion.
On 28 November 1943, Hüther was assigned to the Stabskompanie (Headquarters Company) of Grenadier-Regiment 916 commanded by Oberst Ernst Goth. The importance of a Stabskompanie is usually underestimated. A Stabskompanie was comprised of much more than clerks, messengers, drivers, - let's not forget the cooks! - etc. Its member weren't simply pencil pushers or soldiers who carried out bureaucratic duties. The primary role of a Stabskompanie was to protect the headquarters, in this case, Oberst Goth's headquarters in Trévières, France. Goth was the leading commander of the 352. Infanterie-Division on D-Day, so I have no doubt that his headquarters had soldiers with various skills prepared to defend it - doubtlessly, a percentage of Goth's Stabskompanie, had machine gun, rifle, and heavy weapon (mortar and anti-tank) platoons at their disposal. A few soldiers were doubtlessly snipers or had sniper training.
Yes, in an emergency situation like the Normandy Invasion, members of a Stabskompanie who held non-combatant roles were definitely given a rifle and told to hold the line - most likely, the last time they fired a rifle was during basic training. I have some evidence to show that the Stabskompanie of Grenadier-Regiment 916 was ordered to St. Laurent sur Mer from Trévières on D-Day:
http://forum.wehrmacht-awards.com/fo...d.php?t=653129
I believe that Trévières was liberated on 10 June 1944, which means that Hüther was not in this city on the day he was killed, 12 June 1944.
Searching the Internet, there is plenty of evidence to show that snipers were a big concern and problem for American forces on Omaha Beach and during the subsequent fighting at Normandy.
Not a single entry in Hüther's Wehrpaß shows that he served as a clerk, orderly, messenger, driver, etc., while serving with the Stabskompanie of Grenadier-Regiment 916. At most, Hüther served as a sniper; at least, he was armed with a K-98 rifle and if this was the case, he certainly used his rifle more efficiently than the average rifleman of the Stabskompanie of Grenadier-Regiment 916. Perhaps Hüther didn't have a sniper rifle and didn't act in this capacity from 6 - 12 June 1944, but I think there is a better than 50% chance that he did. What is for sure, from the entries in the Wehrpaß, it can't be disproven that Hüther wasn't employed as a sniper. I also want to reiterate that Hüther has no grave in Normandy. To me, this is a sign that his body was robbed of his belongings and handled with little respect. Snipers in any Army were feared, hated, and when they were captured or killed, given little respect (I can tell a story that my good friend, 95-year-old Robert Brooks Jackson of the 45th Infantry Division, told me about his company's experience with a German sniper on Sicily that shows there was zero tolerance for snipers).
For German readers/speakers, I received an e-mail from the Einwohnermeldeamt of Frankenthal today. They provided me with a few more details about Hüther's short life:
Sehr geehrter Herr Smith,
wir haben in der historischen Einwohnermeldekartei eine Karteikarte von Walter Hüther gefunden. Seine persönlichen Daten (Geburtstag, Geburtsort, Konfession, Beruf) haben Sie ja wahrscheinlich aus dem Wehrpass. Sein Vater war Johann Hüther, Schweißer, seine Mutter Anna, geb. Nack und verwitwete Schröder.
Walter Hüther ist im November 1938 aus Großniedesheim, einem Dorf einige wenige Kilometer nordwestlich von Frankenthal gelegen und sein Geburtsort, nach Frankenthal zugezogen. Seit April 1939 arbeitete er als Maschinenschlosserlehrling in der Frankenthaler Pumpenfabrik Balcke (die nicht mehr existiert). Im Februar 1943 wurde er zum Reichsarbeitsdienst (RAD MA 131 Kaiserslautern) eingezogen und hielt sich im Lager 8/311 in Neckargerach auf. Im April 1943 kehrte er nach Frankenthal zurück und im Mai 1943 wurde er zur Wehrmacht eingezogen (Aufklärer Ers. Abt. 6 Darmstadt).
Hüther war ledig und hatte keine Kinder.
Mit herzlichen grüßen
Gerhard NestlerLast edited by Stormfighter; 03-07-2016, 10:56 PM.Comment
-
Hey Barry,Originally posted by Stormfighter View Post
Based on the identical writing styles, I'd say the "Scharfschütze" entry on page 21 was done by the same hand that wrote the first entry on page 30 ("30.5.-25.9.43 Einsatz im besetzten Westgebiet").
JasonComment
-
An infantry regiments stabskompanie included combat units including the regiments recon platoon (either mounted or on bicycles) and pioneer platoon ( pionier units like this and the divisions battalion were also combat engineers and very much combat soldiers)
Here's the KStN of one type of late war infantry stabskompanie.
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn130n1apr44.htm
As the for the vets signature. Note that it's signed i.V, in vetretung. A vet was still an officer regardless so he got the job of doing some paperwork that required an officers signature, perhaps because the remaining active officers were in the line.
The guy was an infantryman who fought and died during the first week of the Normandy campaign in the Omaha beach area. As it stands that's the most that can be said with certainty.Collecting German award documents, other paperwork and photos relating to Norway and Finland.Comment
-
Here are two scans from a confirmed sniper soldbuch. It shows two things, the equipment issued and pasted in and the awardentry of the sniper badge. That is as close as you are going to get. JComment
-
Am i seeing things or is Scharfschütze misspelled with a double f?
I can perhaps understand the entry if he left basic training with that as his trade as you often see such entries with no course dates.
Also attached an example of a former artilleryman transferred to the infantry and sent on a snipers course.Collecting German award documents, other paperwork and photos relating to Norway and Finland.Comment
-
Hi Simon.
You've seen things
One f in Scharf and the other is the s of schütze. Kapitel S and s are very different and f and s look very alike.
[QUOTE=Simon O.;7315041]Am i seeing things or is Scharfschütze misspelled with a double f?
Regards
BorisComment
Comment