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**Dennis S** · 01-21-2005, 12:37 AM

Here is a shot of it . Is it any good. Regards Dennis

ps. Thanks for the help

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ar tag.jpg (22.4 KB, 390 views)

**Matt L** · 01-21-2005, 02:35 AM

Hi Dennis,

'4./ A.R. 4' stands for 4. Batterie, Artillerie Regiment 4. The '9' is the soldier's Stammrollennummer (serial number) and the 'B' was his blood group.

It's not a very nice example in my opinion- I can't say I see anything really obviously wrong with it, but unless it's really cheap I don't know if I'd buy it. It's not a rare type at all anyway...

Matt

**Dennis S** · 01-21-2005, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by Matt L

Hi Dennis,

'4./ A.R. 4' stands for 4. Batterie, Artillerie Regiment 4. The '9' is the soldier's Stammrollennummer (serial number) and the 'B' was his blood group.

It's not a very nice example in my opinion- I can't say I see anything really obviously wrong with it, but unless it's really cheap I don't know if I'd buy it. It's not a rare type at all anyway...

Matt

Matt, Thanks for the quick reply. I thought it might be RSI. I'm not interested
if not. By the way its on Manions with a starting bid of 10 bucks. Regards Dennis

**Matt L** · 01-21-2005, 11:13 AM

Sure thing Dennis I'm happy to help. The reason I asked where it was is that there are a few 'notorious' auction sites that are chock-full of fakes. Although, as I said, there's nothing obviously bad about this disc, something doesn't sit right with me about it, so it's just as well you're not interested.

The only German-type Erkennungsmarken from Italian units I've ever seen are listed in Wehrmacht Orders of Battle, and have the designation 'Ital'. Would that kind of unit fall within your area of interest?

Matt

**Dennis S** · 01-21-2005, 12:36 PM

Matt, Thanks again. I do have one with an ITAL. I will post these later.
Those tags were for Italians actually enrolled in the Wehrmacht I believe.
I will scan a couple from some RSI books I have ,used by Italians still under the control of the RSI but trained or attached to German units, Regards Dennis

**Dennis S** · 01-24-2005, 02:34 PM

Matt, Any opinion on this one .m

It is marked as follows:
1977
_______ _______ ______
6/LnErs.)Lg.N.R. Rgt.11
Ital.
front and back.

many thanks . Regards Dennis

Attached Files

dog tag ital .jpg (19.3 KB, 368 views)

**Matt L** · 01-24-2005, 03:02 PM

Hi Dennis,

That's a nice one- 6.(Ln. Ers.) Lg. N. Rgt. 11', if you don't already know, stands for:

6. Luftnachrichten-Ersatz-Kompanie Luftgau-Nachrichten-Regiment 11

It wasn't a unit of Italian volunteers, and I see no reason for an Italian soldier to have ever been in it (it wasn't ever in Italy)- interesting.

Matt

**Dennis S** · 01-24-2005, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Matt L

Hi Dennis,

That's a nice one- 6.(Ln. Ers.) Lg. N. Rgt. 11', if you don't already know, stands for:

6. Luftnachrichten-Ersatz-Kompanie Luftgau-Nachrichten-Regiment 11

It wasn't a unit of Italian volunteers, and I see no reason for an Italian soldier to have ever been in it (it wasn't ever in Italy)- interesting.

Matt

Matt, Thanks for the info. Actually not all Italians serving within the Wehrmacht or all RSI Troops served in Italy. After The Italian surrender on Sept 1943. Even before the RSI was formed ,some Italian Units in the Balkans and France and even Russia(AMIR was already back in Italy ,but some units remained) offered their services to the Germans . Sometimes they were wholesale incorperated and sometimes just attached. Some used as smoke,
signal and flak. Other as construction pioneer battalions. Do you know the exact translation in English of this unit? Thanks again. Regards Dennis

**Matt L** · 01-24-2005, 04:54 PM

Hi Dennis,

The translation is:

6th Air-Signals Replacement Company, Luftgau Signals Regiment 11 (Luftgau was a regional section just like Wehrkreis)

The reason I mention that it wasn't an Italian unit or that it even served in Italy, is that I see no other reason to mark "Ital." on the disc- certainly a volunteer's nationality was of no importance on his identity disc unless it pertained specifically to his unit somehow. Perhaps it was simply that the 6. Luftnachrichten-Ersatz-Kompanie was made up of Italian volunteers and the references simply don't go into that level of detail...

Matt

**Chris Stewart** · 01-24-2005, 04:55 PM

Dennis,

Is the inscription also on the back of the tag, opposite half? Just curious. Looks like a Luftwaffe signals replacement tag for the 11th Luftwaffe signals Regiment.

I heard that with the capitulation of the Italians, many Italian units were still on the Eastern Front and most of these men simply were incorporated into the Wehrmacht. If my memory serves me right, there were some Italian field units serving on the Eastern Front from '42 onwards - at least I remember reading that somewhere. I'm curious: if that was the case, would these soldiers be sent back to Ersatz units, retrained and issued new tags? If they hadn't been, I would imagine the tag would have been made to reflect the current unit he was serving in, instead of an Ersatz unit.

Sorry for the ramblings, just thinking outloud!

**Chris Stewart** · 01-24-2005, 05:07 PM

Matt,

I think there is just as much reason to mark Ital. on a disc as there was to mark HIWI on a disc - after the capitulation of Italy, technically they were at war with Italy, or at the very least no longer allied with them. I imagine because of this, Italian volunteers were probably dispersed within the existing framework.

I also don't see any other reason to mark Ital. on the disc.

**Dennis S** · 01-24-2005, 05:26 PM

Italian units serving with the wehrmacht after 1943

Here is a list of Ground Units that served outside of Italy. This is from
Nafziger "Foreigners in Feld Gra" The list may not be complete:

9th September Militia attached to 3rd Brandenburg regiment then with Brandenburg Panzer Grenadier Division in east Prussia

Germany:

3/31 Panzer Regiment
Italian Replacement and Training Batt.
1st Naval Smoke , German Navy
2nd Naval Smoke , German Navy
3rd Naval Smoke , German Navy
4th Naval Smoke , German Navy
5th Naval Smoke , German Navy "

France:

1st Italian Artillery Battalion- 19th Army
Italian security Battalion
1st Italian Naval Division

South East Europe:

33rd Black Shirts Montenegro ,Serbia
72 Black Shirts
81st Black Shirts - 21st Korp Montenegro, Croatia, Bosnia
86th Black Shirts - 21st Korp
92nd Black Shirts - Albania, Vrdinik
111th Black Shirts - 21st Korp
144th Black Shirts- Meontenegro, Albania , Croatia 21st Korp
San Marco Legion(not San Marco Division or Marines) Croatia, Slovenia
Italian Crete Legion- Crete
Italian Samos Legion
Italian Rhodes Regiment- Eastern Aegean, including Coos Flak Battalion
Italian Security Battalion- 81st Regiment LXXXXI Korp to V SS Korp
19th Black Shirts
1st Construction Batt.- 369th Infantry
1st Construction Batt.- LXVIII Korp
2nd Construction Batt.- LXVIII Korp
2nd Construction Batt.- 373 Infantry Division, 2nd Panzer Army
3rd Construction Batt.- 45th Pioneer,2nd Panzer Army
4th Construction Batt. - 501st Construction Pioneer Batt.
5th Construction Batt.- 664 Bruko "B" 2nd Panzer Army
8th Construction Batt.- Croatia 2nd Panzer Army
9th Construction Batt.- Croatia 279 Infantry Division
11th Construction Batt.- 181 Infantry Division
33rd Construction Batt- 15th Panzer Grenadiers
36th Construction Batt.- 297th Infantry Division
37th Construction Batt.- 297th Infantry Division
112th Construction Batt.-
54th Construction Batt.- 1st Mountain Division,XXII Mountain Korp
373rd Construction Batt. - 373rd Infantry Division
392 Construction Batt..- 392 Infantry Division
442 Cconstruction Battalion- XXII Mountain Korp
104th Pioneer Batt. XXII Mountain Korp

This does not include over 50,000 Italians in Luftwaffe Flak ,Signal,
and Fallschirmjager units and Italians enrolled in the Waffen SS outside of Italy

Regards Dennis

**Chris Stewart** · 01-24-2005, 05:34 PM

Dennis,

Do you know if these units continued to operate as autonomous units after the capitulation of Itay, or if:

A) They returned to Italy
B) Were incorporated into the Wehrmacht/SS units (meaning those units listed disbanded)

Just curious.

**Matt L** · 01-24-2005, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by Chris Stewart

Matt,

I think there is just as much reason to mark Ital. on a disc as there was to mark HIWI on a disc - after the capitulation of Italy, technically they were at war with Italy, or at the very least no longer allied with them. I imagine because of this, Italian volunteers were probably dispersed within the existing framework.

Interesting thought- but I don't see the logic in your comparison Chris. HIWIs were POWs- of whatever nation- and the marking was to distinguish them from actual soldiers of the unit. An Italian volunteer in the Luftwaffe would be a formally-registered, uniformed soldier of the unit- the same as any German. I don't see any reason to specifically identify him as Italian on his disc- whether Italy was still an ally or not. One would think that his name and accent would give him away anyway

Remember- the disc's markings were intended to identify a soldier in the event of his death- so stating that he was Italian wouldn't seem to me to be necessary information. His unit would have all that information, yes? I've only ever seen nationalities included when it's actually part of the unit designation. But in this case it wasn't a unit of Italians. So, either the 6. Ersatz Kompanie WAS specifically made up of Italian volunteers, the marking was added to the disc later by someone trying to make it more interesting, or there's another good reason that hasn't come up yet. Initially, my feeling was that it was the second case- we've seen 'SS' and 'HG' added to authentic discs by fakers, but thus far, those kind of markings are quite distingusihable from the authentic markings. In this case, it's harder to tell because there only a single repeated letter- the 't' and they look like they match... are they in fact the same Dennis?

Matt

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